Jaime Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 I believe your exact quote was [quote]I will not get in this discussion again. Offer real proof that we are obliged by the teaching authority of the Catholic Church to believe the state of the modern world is such that there are rarely any criminals deserving of capital punishment that should receive it, or shut the hell up and leave me alone. I've had it with you folks.[/quote] So you find it arbitrary that the the Holy See denounces capital punishment? You find it irrelevant that it includes it into the culture of death (along with abortion and euthenasia) It is included because it is also a matter of morals of which the Church and the Holy Father can authoritatively speak. The Holy Father has spoken about it. The Holy See has spoken about it. Both consider it to be a matter of faith and morals. You are in disagreement with them not me. Exactly what type of proof is necessary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 a teaching of morals is that there are conditions necessary for capital punishment to be used and what those conditions are saying that those conditions are rarely if never met is not a teaching of morals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 hot stuff, you have a degree, so I know very well that you know that an individual action does not fall under the realm of morals. The moral judgment of the Church, as you and I both know for sure (you more certainly because you have studied this far more) falls to the criteria for acting in a certain way. It does not go into whether or not those criteria are met. Am I not correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 By the way, a question never answered, "What in the judgment about individual governments and their abilities has anything to do with morals?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Nov 6 2005, 05:29 PM']By the way, a question never answered, "What in the judgment about individual governments and their abilities has anything to do with morals?" [right][snapback]780463[/snapback][/right] [/quote] And neither was mine...... [quote name='hot stuff']Camster asked again and again "What are the rare exceptions?" and it was left unanswered as the thread closed.[/quote] That was asked a long time ago. Well before this thread.....although I think that hot stuff has offered the best answer thus far. From the Holy See, [quote]It is surely more necessary than ever that the inalienable dignity of human life be universally respected and recognised for its immeasurable value. The Holy See has engaged itself in the pursuit of the abolition of capital punishment and an integral part of the defence of human life at every stage of its development and does so in defiance of any assertion of a culture of death.[/quote] and [quote]The universal abolition of the death penalty would be a courageous reaffirmation of the belief that humankind can be successful in dealing with criminality and of our refusal to succumb to despair before such forces, and as such it would regenerate new hope in our very humanity. [/quote] (ie. There are none, in today's society.) Oh, incidentally, for all you Romo-files out there, regarding the Holy See, in this canonical and diplomatic sense, the term is synonymous with "Apostolic See", "Holy Apostolic See", "Roman Church", "Roman Curia".The origin of these terms can only be approximately ascertained. The word sedes, "chair", is an old technical term applicable to all episcopal sees. It was first used to designate the Churches founded by the Apostles; later the word was applied to the principal Christian Churches. [quote name='Leo III (795-816)'] "Nos sedem apostolicam, quae est caput omnium Dei ecclesiarum, judicare non audemus." (We dare not judge the Apostolic See, which is the head of all the Churches of God.)[/quote] We can thus readily understand how Holy See came be the technical term for the pope, the central ecclesiastical government, and the actual abode of the same. One and the same.....no difference. The Pope is the head of it all. The Vatican City State is not going to hold a position separate from the Church, that is just plain dumb, to assert that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Nov 6 2005, 03:19 PM']Oh I read it. But the meaning must have escaped you if you don't get that it backs up mine and the Church's stance. You even highlighted the correct portions that back up my argument. What is Aquinas saying in those arguments? He consistently talks about the protection of the innocent, who are dangerious to others etc. That is what the Church's stance is as well. The Church has never strayed away from the protection of the innocent. But in today's world, the protection of the innocent does not require the death of the guilty. The guilty can be removed from society with no worry about future harm. Aquinas's arguments are correct. If the innocent need protection, the guilty can be put to death. You've argued my point well. [right][snapback]780393[/snapback][/right] [/quote] What is so different about the late twentieth/twenty-first century that makes it so radically different from all other periods, in which the Church condoned capital punishment? [quote]So you find it arbitrary that the the Holy See denounces capital punishment? You find it irrelevant that it includes it into the culture of death (along with abortion and euthenasia) It is included because it is also a matter of morals of which the Church and the Holy Father can authoritatively speak. The Holy Father has spoken about it. The Holy See has spoken about it. Both consider it to be a matter of faith and morals. You are in disagreement with them not me.[/quote] While the Church has traditionally taught that capital punishment is acceptable, it has never argued for abortion or euthanasia in any circumstances. Equivicating these issues is intellectually dishonest. The Church has always made a distinction between killing the innocent and killing the guilty. (See Aquinas) You talk here as if it is going against official Church moral teaching to support capital punishment. But it certainly seems Cardinal Ratzinger though differently when he said Catholics may have a "legitimate diversity of opinion" on the death penalty, but not on abortion or euthanasia. Who accurately represents Church teaching here, he or you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Nov 6 2005, 08:25 PM']What is so different about the late twentieth/twenty-first century that makes it so radically different from all other periods, in which the Church condoned capital punishment?[/quote] New standards in incarceration for starters. A cell in the US must be able to withstand 900 blows with a sledgehammer on the door and 600 on the wall for maximum security inmates. The rest of the world is not far behind on those standards. These standards have been set and raised within the past 20 years. [quote]While the Church has traditionally taught that capital punishment is acceptable, it has never argued for abortion or euthanasia in any circumstances. Equivicating these issues is intellectually dishonest. The Church has always made a distinction between killing the innocent and killing the guilty. (See Aquinas) You talk here as if it is going against official Church moral teaching to support capital punishment. But it certainly seems Cardinal Ratzinger though differently when he said Catholics may have a "legitimate diversity of opinion" on the death penalty, but not on abortion or euthanasia. Who accurately represents Church teaching here, he or you? [right][snapback]780588[/snapback][/right] [/quote] You act as if I've pulled this opinion out of thin air. I have quoted the Holy See. Which last time I checked then Cardinal Ratzinger was a part of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Nov 6 2005, 08:41 PM']New standards in incarceration for starters. A cell in the US must be able to withstand 900 blows with a sledgehammer on the door and 600 on the wall for maximum security inmates. The rest of the world is not far behind on those standards. These standards have been set and raised within the past 20 years. You act as if I've pulled this opinion out of thin air. [right][snapback]780603[/snapback][/right] [/quote] So the entire morality of capital punishment has changed . . . because cell walls are stronger? [quote]I have quoted the Holy See. Which last time I checked then Cardinal Ratzinger was a part of.[/quote] So are you implying he's contradictng himself? You've never really addressed the "legitimate diversity of opinion" quote. You seem to be implying that one is speaking in opposition to Church teaching if he says that capital punishment is permissable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Nov 6 2005, 08:59 PM']So the entire morality of capital punishment has changed . . . because cell walls are stronger? [/quote] Hmm people are safer against the escape of violent criminals and therefore capital punishment is unnecessary. How is this a difficult concept to comprehend? Heck you were arguing the point for me. (Thanks again for bolding the appropriate statements) [quote] So are you implying he's contradictng himself? You've never really addressed the "legitimate diversity of opinion" quote. You seem to be implying that one is speaking in opposition to Church teaching if he says that capital punishment is permissable. [right][snapback]780625[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Let's see. Then Cardinal Ratzinger states the word "may" and you glom onto it like it was a life preserver. The Holy Father and the Holy See says its unnecessary and its trivialized as an opinion and it doesn't have anything to do with faith and morals. Flip flopping doesn't become some people. The Holy See wants it abolished. Are you saying that Holy See is wrong on this matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Nov 6 2005, 08:59 PM']So the entire morality of capital punishment has changed . . . because cell walls are stronger? [right][snapback]780625[/snapback][/right] [/quote] No, the entire morality of capital punishment has changed, because there is a greater understanding of human dignity. There have been advancements in incarceration, which hot stuff is correct in asserting, but there is a better and more complete understanding of the human person. Unless of course you think that Pope John Paul II was a crackpot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 Here's the quote from Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI, and at the time loyal to and speaking for Pope John Paul II - hardly a voice of dissent): [quote]There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia[/quote] I think this should be quite clear he means here. I really don't know how to clarify this further! If Catholics may not disagree on the issue of when capital punishment may be applied, why say there is a legitimate diversity of opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Nov 6 2005, 09:20 PM']Here's the quote from Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI, and at the time loyal to and speaking for Pope John Paul II - hardly a voice of dissent): [quote]There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia[/quote] I think this should be quite clear he means here. I really don't know how to clarify this further! If Catholics may not disagree on the issue of when capital punishment may be applied, why say there is a legitimate diversity of opinion? [right][snapback]780647[/snapback][/right] [/quote] And we've been over this before, Socrates.......this is a re-hash of the old argument.....wanna start that one up again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 Are you gonna answer my question? If you can... To yours, there is no answer that I can give. I don't pay attention to rare cases, just what the Church teaches/can say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Nov 6 2005, 09:11 PM']No, the entire morality of capital punishment has changed, because there is a greater understanding of human dignity. There have been advancements in incarceration, which hot stuff is correct in asserting, but there is a better and more complete understanding of the human person. Unless of course you think that Pope John Paul II was a crackpot. [right][snapback]780639[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Catholic morality does not change over the ages. This type of talk sounds suspiciously modernist. Principles of morality do not "evolve" over time. Do you really think we have a "greater understanding of human dignity" now than we did in the Age of Faith? Oh, I forget, St. Thomas Aquinas lived way back in those primitive, unenlightened dark ages. He was scarcely higher than an ape, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Nov 6 2005, 09:20 PM']Here's the quote from Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI, and at the time loyal to and speaking for Pope John Paul II - hardly a voice of dissent): I think this should be quite clear he means here. I really don't know how to clarify this further! If Catholics may not disagree on the issue of when capital punishment may be applied, why say there is a legitimate diversity of opinion? [right][snapback]780647[/snapback][/right] [/quote] You've brought a quote up that's been brought up how many times before? Ratzinger = Cardinal The Holy See = The Holy See Whose statement is stronger? Is the Holy See ( which Ratzinger was a part of) wrong in stating they are for the abolition of the death penalty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now