qfnol31 Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Nov 5 2005, 11:43 AM']And yet the logical question asked is if it should be rare, when should it be applied? And within all the discussions on that line, no one has ever answered that question. [right][snapback]779535[/snapback][/right] [/quote] When it is necessary. Plus, I don't think that rare is defined as something specific, for it could mean two a year or it could mean 300 a year (which out of 100s of millions of people is really rare compared to the relative population). On top of that, to say that the application should be rare is to say have internal information on all governments that says that they all have the necessary criteria to hold every criminal in every case, which I'm proven by various stories as posted by Cmom is not necessarily the case. [quote]Yet I would argue that this is no reason not to generally obey the teachings of Holy Mother Church. If the pope ever says nations don't have the right to the use of the death penalty, then the death penalty is over. Period. Moreover the judgments of the Church should still be taken into account when such matters are at hand.[/quote] But in this case, and the reason I will argue vehemently on this for hours is that the Pope saying that the death penalty should not be used at all is not a teaching of Holy Mother Church, but rather just an opinion of a private theologian. This is an important distinction because otherwise many of the things Pope Benedict have said on the Liturgy and music are not being followed and many Catholics are in error (most especially charistmatics and groups like LifeTeen), which I assure you is not necessarily the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 the catechism only justifies capital punishment if it is necessary........so i voted no when it applies to the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Nov 5 2005, 11:43 AM']And yet the logical question asked is if it should be rare, when should it be applied? And within all the discussions on that line, no one has ever answered that question. [right][snapback]779535[/snapback][/right] [/quote] That's probably because it does not have a "one size fits all" answer but must be judged on a case-by-case basis by people who have been reviewing the evidence throughout the course of the process. My skepticism (note I am not arguing for its abolition) on the death penalty is not in any intrinsic morality arguments,but rather on my lack of faith in the Illinois criminal justice system after the Rolando Cruz case and all the people freed from death row after DNA tests exonerated them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 [quote name='beatty07' date='Nov 4 2005, 12:16 PM'] The best I can come up with is this: imagine some extremely effective doomsday cult leader with dozens of followers. He bases his cult on heinous crimes (I don't care to imagine details here!) and has led them himself. The cult is such that his followers would certainly attempt to free him by terrorist means if he were imprisoned. It's not possible to round up the whole bunch, but we've got this leader in custody. [right][snapback]778806[/snapback][/right] [/quote] This is the exact scenario that I am thinking of, which occurred to me during the Timothy McVeigh case. Another is Charles Manson. Believe it or not, he is up for parole every two years, even though he was on death row! We all need to realize that legislating "life without parole" does no good if some la-la judge decides to ignore it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 "rare if practically non-existent" is amgiguous and proves nothing-- it belongs in the stage it was made, advice to world leaders on the big scene making the big policy decisions dealing with thousands of people as mere numbers... it is so general and far-reaching as to have little or no impact on discussion of which specific cases ought to use capital punishment or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Nov 5 2005, 02:48 PM']"rare if practically non-existent" is amgiguous and proves nothing-- it belongs in the stage it was made, advice to world leaders on the big scene making the big policy decisions dealing with thousands of people as mere numbers... it is so general and far-reaching as to have little or no impact on discussion of which specific cases ought to use capital punishment or not. [right][snapback]779615[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Translation: The Holy Father doesn't agree with my position on capital punishment and therefore I must trivialize his opinion (and the opinion of the Magesterium) on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 NOPE. study your aloysiusinese a bit more. your translation was way off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 (edited) [quote name='hot stuff' date='Nov 5 2005, 08:01 PM']Translation: The Holy Father doesn't agree with my position on capital punishment and therefore I must trivialize his opinion (and the opinion of the Magesterium) on the matter. [right][snapback]779808[/snapback][/right] [/quote] hot stuff, that's incorrect and borderline rude... Edited November 6, 2005 by qfnol31 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
son_of_angels Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 Speaking of which, I don't believe I've heard anything from the Holy Father in his capacity as Pope yet. Remember, John Paul is not the earthly Holy Father anymore. When Benedict was a cardinal, though, he did mention the fact that "legitimate diversity" could be held regarding the matter of the death penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Nov 5 2005, 10:48 PM']hot stuff, that's incorrect and borderline rude... [right][snapback]779914[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Feel free to elaborate on how that's incorrect. Honestly, when the Church or the Holy Father does not speak in absolutes, many Catholics orthodox or not, feel that they have free reign to disregard it. [quote name='son_of_angels' date='Nov 6 2005, 12:42 AM']Speaking of which, I don't believe I've heard anything from the Holy Father in his capacity as Pope yet. Remember, John Paul is not the earthly Holy Father anymore. [right][snapback]780024[/snapback][/right] [/quote] What difference does that make? Are you suggesting that anything said by JPII is now irrevelant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Nov 5 2005, 08:01 PM']Translation: The Holy Father doesn't agree with my position on capital punishment and therefore I must trivialize his opinion (and the opinion of the Magesterium) on the matter. [right][snapback]779808[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Please note that you said "opinion". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Nov 5 2005, 11:43 AM']And yet the logical question asked is if it should be rare, when should it be applied? And within all the discussions on that line, no one has ever answered that question. [right][snapback]779535[/snapback][/right] [/quote]It has been answed many, many times. It has been answered with clarity, thought, and pursuasive argument. Just because [u]your[/u] [i]opinon[/i] disagrees, doesn't mean it wasn't answered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 [quote name='jasJis' date='Nov 6 2005, 12:24 PM']It has been answed many, many times. It has been answered with clarity, thought, and pursuasive argument. Just because [u]your[/u] [i]opinon[/i] disagrees, doesn't mean it wasn't answered. [right][snapback]780269[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Show me where. I was actively involved in the last Death Penalty thread. Camster asked again and again "What are the rare exceptions?" and it was left unanswered as the thread closed. Again, my problem is that when the Church or the Holy Father does not speak in absolutes, people feel they have every right to disregard it. That lacks critical thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 [quote]Feel free to elaborate on how that's incorrect. Honestly, when the Church or the Holy Father does not speak in absolutes, many Catholics orthodox or not, feel that they have free reign to disregard it.[/quote] Many orthodox Catholics will disagree when there's nothing Magisterial about it, but I do not believe that Aloysius is so simple as to only listen to absolutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 Ah yes, the mighty Camster proved everything with his constant rehashing of the same thing over and over again even though everything had been answered (just not the way he wanted it to be answered, and perhaps not on his terms) I will not get in this discussion again. Offer real proof that we are obliged by the teaching authority of the Catholic Church to believe the state of the modern world is such that there are rarely any criminals deserving of capital punishment that should receive it, or shut the hell up and leave me alone. I've had it with you folks. We could have a civil discussion of our legitimately diverse opinions on the Church's terms, but you insist on carrying the Church's terms FAR PAST what they are stated to be, and thus I will not discuss this with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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