About Atheism

[Semalsia]

[quote name='jezic']you can prove God exists with Philosophy, it just takes a long time.[/quote]

So now it is [b]hard[/b] again. And non-obvious.

I'll ask again:
Why is it hard? Why isn't it evident?

[philothea]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Nov 3 2005, 09:47 AM']Thats really a slap in the face to many people. Alot of Atheist I know were believers for many years , myself included.  Most of my life I was a believer and a fervent one at that. In fact my whole life I had wanted to be a monk , could you believe it. Knowledge led me to this position and its one that is honest to myself. Most atheist I know just didn't start out that way, they usually come from deeply religious backgrounds where God has been taken into extreme consideration.
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I am sorry for that; I realized I sounded unkind -- however it has been my experience so far.

The formerly religious atheists I know (I don't really consider that I know you, except that I recognize your name here.) came from very rigid and/or very emotional religious backgrounds. That's just asking to be set up. God isn't "nice" in the way people want. And Christianity doesn't "make sense" like say, mathematics does. Expecting otherwise is always going to lead to an apparent contradiction. Nowhere does Catholicism promise to make your life all wonderful and happy. Nowhere does Catholicism promise to explain everything to you so you'll understand. Faith is dark, and the path is narrow and steep.

However, the experience I mentioned was that many people -- athiests especially -- do not seriously investigate the teachings of the Church because [i]if it turned out the Church was right[/i] they would either have to radically change their lifestyle, or undergo (perceived) public embarassment for having to retract what they'd said before. They are invested in God not existing. People do this in all fields of life. It's hardly unique.

I don't know anything about your lifestyle, but given your radio broadcasts, you may be personally invested in athiesm now?

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='jezic' date='Nov 3 2005, 09:55 AM']You can prove God exists with Philosophy, it just takes a long time.

Umm.... question ..... if many atheists were believers at one time, what happened to them? Intelligence should lead to God because, as we believe, he is the source and the Creator and is thus intelligent.

Why would intelligence lead you to decide that God didn't exist?
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I'll try to be as brief as I can. From the moment I was taught that there is a God, I was immediately drawn to it. I wanted to know everything I could about God and what my purpose in life was. It became my lifes work and I wanted to dedicate myself to becomming as close to God as humanly possible . Throughout the years I had taken in alot of information from the Bible and other christian writings. I would believe it usually because it just felt right or some other emotion deep inside. I never ever questioned the source. I thought, hey this is the Bible, right. The book of God - case closed. Doubts started to creep in my head when I was exposed to other beliefs. Some of these other beliefs I felt a deep connection with and really felt that people might be getting Gods plan all wrong. Namely, organizations.So I became a 'I just believe in God and try to live a good life type' of person. It wasn't until I started to deeply analyze why I believe in something that everything began to unravel. I started to ask myself, Who wrote this? How many of them wrote it? Why should I believe they were inspired by God? Whos right and whos wrong? Why isn't there evidence? What is faith? Did any of this happen? Just to name a few.

So its not like I sought out to descredit the bible or any other religious texts. My journey in learning more about them led me away from it all. Because when it was all said and done I didnt find God. I found man. It was hard to come to grips with it but I did and alot of other people have. It makes me sick that people just say that we never ever really invested into the idea of God. Some of us lived most of our lives for God.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Nov 3 2005, 10:56 AM']Some atheist do deny the existence of God and so need an argument for their claim. However, some atheists don't deny the existence of God, but simply don't believe in one. And that's pretty much what I'm talking in this thread. Everyone is born an atheist, because they can't believe in something they don't have knowledge of. It's a lack of views concerning God.

Everything else is extra.
[/quote]

I am not sure it is possible to not believe, or to refuse to believe in something and yet not assert a claim that it does not exist. For instance, if I do not believe X, it then becomes a presupposition for all of my behavior. My behavior then exibits a denial of the reality of X for I act in accord to what I believe and will shape how I act in respect to presuppositions. Is that clear? If I do not think that X is real, my behavior will come to reflect a denial of that, asserting a claim if you will.

So some athiests then admit that there could be a God, but suspend judgment on the topic? That sounds a lot like the skepticism that I mentioned earlier.

[quote]So now it is hard again. And non-obvious.

I'll ask again:
Why is it hard? Why isn't it evident?[/quote] I have already referred you to Romans 1:20. Also, philsophy works from what is evident. Nemo dat quod non habet.

And Melchisedec, you found doubt because you believe there lacked suffecient back up or evidence for Divine Inspiration? Or was it more of a lack of answers to some of the more difficult questions that lead you away from the faith? And a bit more personal question if you do not mind me asking, why are you on a Catholic forum then?

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='philothea' date='Nov 3 2005, 11:14 AM']  And Christianity doesn't "make sense" like say, mathematics does.  Expecting otherwise is always going to lead to an apparent contradiction
[/quote]

I am curious as to why it doesn't make sense? How could I understand it then?

[quote]However, the experience I mentioned was that many people -- athiests especially -- do not seriously investigate the teachings of the Church because [i]if it turned out the Church was right[/i] they would either have to radically change their lifestyle, or undergo (perceived) public embarassment for having to retract what they'd said before. They are invested in God not existing.  People do this in all fields of life.  It's hardly unique.
[/quote]

I hear that argument alot . That essentially people don't want to believe in God because they would have to alter their lifestyle. I've been told that the reason I am Atheist is because I want to lead an immoral life. I mean thats so insulting. I think maybe in some cases it might be true and I will acknowledge that. Yet I see homosexuals who believe in God wholeheartedly. Even in the midst of continuing to lead their 'lifestyle' and knowing that they are essentially damned. You would think they would just reject God. I see usually people bending beliefs to suit their own agendas than flat out rejecting the idea of God altogether. I mean I don't encounter many Atheist in my life. Yet I encounter people who believe in God without a doubt and tend to live their life as they please.


[quote]I don't know anything about your lifestyle, but given your radio broadcasts, you may be personally invested in athiesm now?
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I am pretty involved with atheism now but I don't do it as Im part of a team against another team. I am a knowledge seeker and I like to research these topics continually. Infidelguy is a place were the two sides explore the issues. I know some good friends that are very brilliant christian philosophers and we enjoy discussing the issues and getting a new perspective on things.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Nov 3 2005, 11:46 AM']And Melchisedec, you found doubt because you believe there lacked suffecient back up or evidence for Divine Inspiration? Or was it more of a lack of answers to some of the more difficult questions that lead you away from the faith?
[/quote]

I would say both. But inspiration is something that is probably a bigger issue for most things.

[quote]And a bit more personal question if you do not mind me asking, why are you on a Catholic forum then?
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Well many moons ago there was a Catholic raiding party that went around to all the Atheist forums posting links to phatmass welcoming people to come and discuss various things. I took them up on the offer and kinda stuck around. I've had some great conversations here. But anytime you guys want me out, all you gotta do is say so.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='jezic' date='Nov 3 2005, 10:02 AM']i was thinking about Fides et Ratio as well.

Melchisedek and anyone else, have you read that type of stuff (Papal encyclicals)?
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Nope but I go to [url="http://www.newadvent.org/"]http://www.newadvent.org/[/url] alot.

[Paphnutius]

Okay then, what makes you doubt Divine Inspiritation of the Scripture?

And I have to go, but I will try to reply later this evening.

[jezic]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Nov 3 2005, 11:01 AM'][quote name='jezic']you can prove God exists with Philosophy, it just takes a long time.[/quote]

So now it is [b]hard[/b] again. And non-obvious.

I'll ask again:
Why is it hard? Why isn't it evident?
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[/quote]

proving God with philosophy is difficult because there are people who do not accept certain assumptions (which are valid) and those must be proven (so you end up proving many other things in the process.)

[jezic]

[quote]I hear that argument alot . That essentially people don't want to believe in God because they would have to alter their lifestyle. I've been told that the reason I am Atheist is because I want to lead an immoral life. I mean thats so insulting. I think maybe in some cases it might be true and I will acknowledge that. Yet I see homosexuals who believe in God wholeheartedly. Even in the midst of continuing to lead their 'lifestyle' and knowing that they are essentially damned. You would think they would just reject God. I see usually people bending beliefs to suit their own agendas than flat out rejecting the idea of God altogether. I mean I don't encounter many Atheist in my life. Yet I encounter people who believe in God without a doubt and tend to live their life as they please.
[/quote]

True belief in God requires a radical transformation of the soul. THere are many that do not have this transformation and yet claim belief.

[Cow of Shame]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Nov 3 2005, 09:48 AM']It is not a religion. [b]Thats just something theist like to say to upset Atheist.[/b] Like 'you believe in nothing'.
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Well, maybe a little. heh Athiests have a set of beliefs that cannot be proven or unproven, just as people who believe in God...a religion, if you will. Heck, I think believing in evolution as a fact & not a hypothesis is a type of religion. All sides can point to observable occurances & use them as 'proof' of their sets of beliefs. Christians have the bible, and can point to the beauty of creation, and back it up with their emotional response to their faith in God. Athiests have the cruelty of humanity, the lack of emperical evidence of a soul or of God, can point to the heartlessness of creation, and back it up with their emotional response to all of the above.

Atheists don't like to think that they've chosen a religion...the whole point (well, one of the points) is to distance themselves from the illogical, crutch-using bible thumpers who have to rely on some 'mystic being' to make it through the day. It still doesn't get away from the fact that you've built up a belief set of your own about God's existance (or lack thereof)...a religion.

And agnostics... "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice"

Edited November 3, 2005 by Cow of Shame

[Cow of Shame]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Nov 3 2005, 08:00 AM']I wasn't aware that atheism needed any arguments. Why would it? It doesn't make any claims.
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Claiming that there is no God is as big as claiming that there is....

[Cow of Shame]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Nov 3 2005, 11:51 AM'] But anytime you guys want me out, all you gotta do is say so.
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I think they want sincere atheists..it's flippant catholics they take issue with

[jezic]

what do you believe in then?

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Cow of Shame' date='Nov 3 2005, 02:43 PM']Athiests have the cruelty of humanity, the lack of emperical evidence of a soul or of God, can point to the heartlessness of creation, and back it up with their emotional response to all of the above.
[/quote]

Lovely picture you paint. I could understand considering the christian worldview sees man as a terrible no good beast that is only worth a smidgen because of God. Ofcourse I disagree. While man is cruel and can be heartless, I think our true nature is that one of love and wanting to be loved and accepted. I don't buy the inherently cruel argument. Maybe someone could show me otherwise. As far as the heartlessness of creation I dont understand what you mean by that?

[quote]Atheists don't like to think that they've chosen a religion...the whole point (well, one of the points) is to distance themselves from the illogical, crutch-using bible thumpers who have to rely on some 'mystic being' to make it through the day.  It still doesn't get away from the fact that you've built up a belief set of your own about God's existance (or lack thereof)...a religion.

And agnostics... "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice"
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Now I actually agree with you on some points here. I think for those who have turned away from religion the idea of being called an adherent to one is unsettling. My qualm with your distinction is that you use the term loosely enough to entitle things such as patriotism to be a religion.