Could Mary have sinned?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Cam, explain in English or Latin, but please, let me understand you. :

Your philosophy makes no sense. Particularly this:

[quote]She could do nothing but cooperate. Whereas we can change our view, she could not. She was capable, because she was human, but she could not, PRECISELY because it would change her character as a person.[/quote]

1. If she could do nothing but cooperate, then she had no choice and thus did not exercise free will.

2. The second sentence seems completely self-contradictory.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Oct 29 2005, 10:19 PM']I don't believe that the final use of the word "could" is correct.  Could implies some uncertainty.  To say "necessarily...couldn't" is to make a certain statement and therefore leads one to conclude that "couldn't" in that sense is a reference to potestas, not to a subjunctive meaning (since "necessarily" is certain and would contradict "couldn't" in its subjunctive sense).
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(necessarily was an adverb to the verb of chose and has no bearing on the rest of that sentence)

she necessarily chose by a thomistic understanding of predestination
she chose what was foreknown by God she would choose by a mollinistic understanding of predestination

either one produces Cam's view that in the light of eternity she couldn't have sinned because of predestination.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Oct 29 2005, 10:30 PM'](necessarily was an adverb to the verb of chose and has no bearing on the rest of that sentence)

she necessarily chose by a thomistic understanding of predestination
she chose what was foreknown by God she would choose by a mollinistic understanding of predestination

either one produces Cam's view that in the light of eternity she couldn't have sinned because of predestination.
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Again...English or Latin, I'm not fluent in Philosophospeak.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Oct 29 2005, 10:28 PM']Cam, explain in English or Latin, but please, let me understand you. :

Your philosophy makes no sense.  Particularly this:

[quote]She could do nothing but cooperate. Whereas we can change our view, she could not. She was capable, because she was human, but she could not, PRECISELY because it would change her character as a person.[/quote]

1. If she could do nothing but cooperate, then she had no choice and thus did not exercise free will.

2. The second sentence seems completely self-contradictory.
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Because Mary was excluded from original sin (B), she was destined to be the Mother of God (A). Mary could not change her view ( C ), because she was excluded from original sin (B). Because she could not change her view ( C ), she was destined to be the Mother of God (A).

There it is in syllogistic view.

If B's are A's
and C's are B's
then C's are A's.

Does that help? If not, let me try this.

Mary was excluded from original sin. Because she participated in this, she could not sin, because she could do nothing other than good. To do other than good would lose the grace that was given to her at her conception. The grace given to her at her conception was effacious. It allowed her to choose good every single time.

Since merely sufficient grace (gratia mere sufficiens) in its very concept contains the idea of a withholding of consent on the part of free will, and is therefore at the very outset destined to inefficiency (gratia inefficax), the question in its last analysis reduces itself to the relation between free will and efficacious grace (gratia efficax), which contains the very idea that by it and with it the free will does precisely that which this grace desires should be done.

Mary participated completely and totally in gratia efficax. Humans who were born with original sin participate in gratia mere sufficiens, which leads to gratia inefficax. Mary did not participate in that. She participtated in gratia efficax. Because she was excluded from original sin from her conception. This is what we strive for and this is why she is called the new Eve and the prototypical Christian.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote]Mary could not change her view ( C ), because she was excluded from original sin (B).[/quote]

I don't understand what this means...that Mary couldn't change her mind?

That would diminish her human nature, since we make choices in time.

[Aloysius]

simply put without getting into one of those horrid debates on predestination, because Mary was predestined to not sin (by whichever Catholic system of predestination you adhere to, the two most popular acceptable ones are thomism and mollinism) then in that sense she couldn't have sinned

but as a human being she held the capacity to choose to sin and in that sense she could have sinned. a mollinist would say that God foreknew she wouldn't sin, a thomist would say that by God's providence she necessarily chose not to sin, either way in the light of eternity (where every moment is seen at once) she didn't sin and would not have sinned, in that sense she couldn't have sinned, because in the light of eternity what has happened, is.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote]To do other than good would lose the grace that was given to her at her conception. The grace given to her at her conception was effacious. It allowed her to choose good every single time.[/quote]

I agree...but preceding that is this:

[quote]Because she participated in this, she could not sin, because she could do nothing other than good. [/quote]

She could have chosen not to participate at any point in here life, though, right? That's what the ability to sin is, afterall, and if she didn't have the ability to sin, then she wasn't human.

Now, I can understand kinda if by "could not" you mean that, because she was granted the Immaculate Conception, which presupposes the divine knowledge that she would not sin, she could not sin in the sense that God already knew that she wouldn't, although she still had the ability to sin, then I can kind of understand, but it would still not be the nature of her Immaculate Conception alone which would keep her from sin, but her free choice throughout life. When we say merely that it was grace, we focus on the objective and cut out her subjective, her response to grace.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Oct 29 2005, 11:02 PM']simply put without getting into one of those horrid debates on predestination, because Mary was predestined to not sin (by whichever Catholic system of predestination you adhere to, the two most popular acceptable ones are thomism and mollinism) then in that sense she couldn't have sinned

but as a human being she held the capacity to choose to sin and in that sense she could have sinned.  a mollinist would say that God foreknew she wouldn't sin, a thomist would say that by God's providence she necessarily chose not to sin, either way in the light of eternity (where every moment is seen at once) she didn't sin and would not have sinned, in that sense she couldn't have sinned, because in the light of eternity what has happened, is.
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Okay, I can agree with that, particularly in light of your last sentence, but if I could get clear answers on my last couple questions to Cam, I might come closer to understanding.

Realize that I'm not trying to debate, but if I'm lacking in some knowledge of the faith and therefore am a material heretic in this matter, I'd like to understand so that I can clean out that little problem.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Oct 29 2005, 11:07 PM']I agree...but preceding that is this:
She could have chosen not to participate at any point in here life, though, right?  That's what the ability to sin is, afterall, and if she didn't have the ability to sin, then she wasn't human.

Now, I can understand kinda if by "could not" you mean that, because she was granted the Immaculate Conception, which presupposes the divine knowledge that she would not sin, she could not sin in the sense that God already knew that she wouldn't, although she still had the ability to sin, then I can kind of understand, but it would still not be the nature of her Immaculate Conception alone which would keep her from sin, but her free choice throughout life.  When we say merely that it was grace, we focus on the objective and cut out her subjective, her response to grace.
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The thing is that it is not merely grace, but effacious grace (gratia efficax). And we have not cut out the subjective at all, but rather it is her subjective submission to the gratia efficax that leads to the objective truth that Mary did not sin, not because she wasn't capable, but because of the grace that was infused at her conception, she wouldn't and couldn't.

I know that you are not trying to debate. The debate part of this is over.....however, Micah, this doesn't get much clearer. Al and I are pretty much restating our positions over and over. There really isn't any clearer way to state it. Apologies for that.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Oct 29 2005, 11:28 PM']...but because of the grace that was infused at her conception, she wouldn't and couldn't.
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That's what I'm having a problem with. It sounds like you're basically saying that God forced His grace on her...that she had no choice but to accept it.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Oct 29 2005, 11:36 PM']That's what I'm having a problem with.  It sounds like you're basically saying that God forced His grace on her...that she had no choice but to accept it.
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No, not at all....

She willingly accepted the grace. I said that a long time ago and have been assuming that is understood. My apologies.

[quote name='Cam42' date=' Yesterday, 11:58 PM']Incidentally, from the moment of our conception, we are full human beings. This cannot be denied. While we may have the stain of original sin, it doesn't mean that God cannot act in a miraculous way and eleviate that burden. As a matter of fact, he did, once, with Mary. [b]However, when God communicated with Mary it was at the moment of her conception. He said, "You have a choice, Yes or No?" She said YES!!!!!! That yes is vocalized in the Magnificat, but had existed from the moment of her conception.[/b]

In short, the Immaculate Conception was a miracle. In short, the Blessed Virgin is the prototypical Christian. She gave herself first and completely to God, from the moment of her conception, without ceasing without distraction, without regret. It is her joy and our standard. We should strive to be like her, in all things. Again, Totus Tuus.[/quote]

I am sorry if you missed this point. It was a good number of posts ago.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Oct 29 2005, 11:41 PM']No, not at all....

She willingly accepted the grace.  I said that a long time ago and have been assuming that is understood.  My apologies.
I am sorry if you missed this point.  It was a good number of posts ago.
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Could she change her mind?

[Cam42]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Oct 29 2005, 11:46 PM']Could she change her mind?
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No, because her mind and her will were illumined by the gratia efficax. If she were to have changed her mind, she would not have been the Immaculate Conception. Because she would not have accpeted all that God asked of her. And she would have contradicted a characteristic of her person, which is gratia efficax.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Oct 29 2005, 11:55 PM']No, because her mind and her will were illumined by the gratia efficax.  If she were to have changed her mind, she would not have been the Immaculate Conception.  Because she would not have accpeted all that God asked of her.  And she would have contradicted a characteristic of her person, which is gratia efficax.
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Then during her life, she was not acting out of free will and therefore ceased to be human? If she could not change her mind, then she could not have been choosing freely. Are you telling me that for the Blessed Virgin, once saved always saved is the reality?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

1. Could Mary have made an act of the will at the moment of conception?

I can't see how the answer could be yes. It's before the age of reason, for starters. What's more, she didn't have a brain then and therefore couldn't process information.

2. If she could not change her mind, then her "fiat" is a once-for-all, like the angels. She wouldn't be human.

3. She must be allowed to cooperate freely with the grace throughout her life. It could not take hold of her and force her to cooperate...such would not be true cooperation. Yet, that is precisely what it would be doing if she had no choice to change her mind.