Could Mary have sinned?

[Cam42]

38 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

Lol.  Exactly the root of the quetstion if Mary had ability to sin and what free will means.  Whether Mary sinned or not or was protected from sin for a period of time or if it was a unique reward for willful assent has to be understood in context.  

No, Mary did not have the ability to sin.  Her will was perfected at her conception.  She was excluded from original sin, therefore she did not know what sin was on a metaphysical or epistemological level.  Sin was completely foreign to her nature.  Sure, she saw sin all around her, but because she was perfected in her will, she was never put in a near occasion to sin.

This is the miracle of the Immaculate Conception and the further miracle of her impeccability.

[Anomaly]

Why not give the grace of freedom from sin in the first place and avoided all this spiritual torment?

[Cam42]

1 hour ago, Anomaly said:

Why didn't Gid provide sufficient grace to Adam and Eve so they could have free will and not sin?

Free will is not bound to sin.  God did provide sufficient grace to Adam and Eve.  But they gave into temptation.  They were not impeccable.  We have this flawed notion that free will and sin are two sides of the same coin.  They are not.  Sin is a defect of free will, not an attribute.  God did not create any man to sin.  God did not create sin, itself.

True freedom lies in the ability to live in God's grace without succumbing to sin.

1 minute ago, Anomaly said:

Why not give the grace of freedom from sin in the first place and avoided all this spiritual torment?

He did.  God's commandment to Adam was what?  It was to know Him, which he did.  It was to love Him, which he did.  It was to serve Him, which he did not do (Adam ate of the fruit, of which he was forbidden to eat).  God's plan was never for Adam and Eve to sin.  But once they did, He brought about the salvation of man through the Incarnation.  Because the Second Person of the Trinity was to become fully human, He had to pass through a human vessel.  There is no way that God could pass through a sinful vessel and remain sinless.  Therefore, God excluded Mary at her conception from original sin.  This didn't mean that she didn't share in the redemption of Christ, but rather that she was redeemed at the moment of he conception, not her death, as all other men were and are.  Mary lived an impeccable life, because she was the Theotokos.  She had to be spotless in order to fulfill that mission.  She gave her fiat as a confirmation of what was already true.

[Kevin]

2 hours ago, Nihil Obstat said:

Again, your charity and maturity never cease to amaze. And I guess pointing out a basic flaw in logic is "salty"

But anyway, it actually does seem the Church teaches that Mary was impeccable, according to Canon 23 of Trent---i.e. her free will was held down by Calvinist irresistible grace her whole life like a robot with a "do not sin" protocol. Yet another reason to consider converting to the Orthodox or any other church.

[Anomaly]

15 minutes ago, Cam42 said:

Free will is not bound to sin.  God did provide sufficient grace to Adam and Eve.  But they gave into temptation.  They were not impeccable.  We have this flawed notion that free will and sin are two sides of the same coin.  They are not.  Sin is a defect of free will, not an attribute.  God did not create any man to sin.  God did not create sin, itself.

True freedom lies in the ability to live in God's grace without succumbing to sin.

He did.  God's commandment to Adam was what?  It was to know Him, which he did.  It was to love Him, which he did.  It was to serve Him, which he did not do (Adam ate of the fruit, of which he was forbidden to eat).  God's plan was never for Adam and Eve to sin.  But once they did, He brought about the salvation of man through the Incarnation.  Because the Second Person of the Trinity was to become fully human, He had to pass through a human vessel.  There is no way that God could pass through a sinful vessel and remain sinless.  Therefore, God excluded Mary at her conception from original sin.  This didn't mean that she didn't share in the redemption of Christ, but rather that she was redeemed at the moment of he conception, not her death, as all other men were and are.  Mary lived an impeccable life, because she was the Theotokos.  She had to be spotless in order to fulfill that mission.  She gave her fiat as a confirmation of what was already true.

You're avoiding the simple point with verbosity.  If Mary could have the grace to not sin, then it is apparent that it could be given.   Why not make angels and creation and humans with sufficient grace to be incapable of sin in the first place? 

Edited December 21, 2015 by Anomaly

[Cam42]

The Council of Trent has defined that 'after a justification a man cannot avoid, during the whole course of his life, every venial sin, without a special privilege such as the Church recognizes was conferred on the Blessed Virgin'. The soul in the state of grace can therefore avoid any venial sin considered separately, but cannot avoid all venial sins taken together by keeping itself always free from them. Mary however avoided all sin, even the least grave. St. Augustine affirms that 'for the honor of her Son Who came to remit the sins of the world, Mary is never included when there is question of sin'.

[snip]

Mary had therefore impeccantia (the term is parallel to inerrantia) or freedom from sin, and even impeccability. Her title to these endowments is not however the same as her Son's. In her case it was a matter of preservation from every sin through a special privilege. This privilege includes first of all a very high degree of habitual grace and charity, which gives the soul a strong inclination to the act of love of God and withdraws it from sin. It includes also confirmation in grace, which when granted to a Saint is had normally through an increase of charity, especially that proper to the state of transforming union, and an increase of actual efficacious graces which preserve the soul de facto from sin and move it to ever more meritorious acts. Thus Mary enjoyed a special assistance of Divine Providence. This assistance-----more effective than even that which belonged to the state of innocence-----preserved all her faculties from faults, and kept her soul in a state of the most complete generosity. Just as confirmation in grace is an effect of the predestination of the Saints, so this preservative assistance granted to Mary was an effect of her peculiar predestination. Far from diminishing her liberty or free will, the effect of this preservation from sin was to confer on her full liberty in the order of moral goodness, with no inclination to evil (just as her mind never tended to error). Hence her liberty, following the example of that of Jesus, was a faithful and most pure image of God's liberty, which is at once sovereign and incapable of sin.  (emphasis mine).

This was taken from:
The Mother of  the Savior 
Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O. P. 

1 minute ago, Anomaly said:

You're avoiding the simple point with verbosity.  If Mary could have the grave to not sin, then it is apparent that it could be given.   Why not make angels and creation and humans with sufficient grace to be incapable of sin in the first place? 

You continue to miss the point.  Sin and grace are not related.  Sin is a defect.  God never intended for anyone to sin, ever.  God does provide sufficent grace.  Whether we accept that grace or not, is not a matter of free will, it is a matter of our lack of charity in accepting it as it is presented.  That isn't free will.  That is human imperfection.

[Anomaly]

Does not answer the question.   A proper answer needs to be comprehensible and succinct.   Excessive equivocation is just obfuscation that avoids an answer. 

It has been repeatedly stated by yourself and others that Mary was incapable of sin because of special graces.  

[KnightofChrist]

4 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

Does not answer the question.

Sure it does.

[Anomaly]

It doesn't. 

Mary had free will and was preserved from sin and was given grace to not sin.  She was made incapable of sin.   

Why not do that at the beginning for Angels and Adam and avoid the entire Fall?

[Cam42]

59 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

It doesn't. 

Mary had free will and was preserved from sin and was given grace to not sin.  She was made incapable of sin.   

Why not do that at the beginning for Angels and Adam and avoid the entire Fall?

Take the angels out of the equation.  They are a sidebar.  Their part in this is not the same as the humans.

You have to get your head around the idea that free will does not equal the ability to sin.  They are mutually exclusive.

I will be a succinct as possible.  READY?

1.  Free will equals living in a state of grace with God.
2. Man was not created to choose sin.
3. Sin is a defect of the human will (different from free will).
4. Adam and Eve were created, not conceived before sin was a reality
5. Original Sin was the first defect of the human will.
6. Adam and Eve were not created with impeccably, because there was no need, there was no sin.
7. Eve gave in to temptation and therefore bound herself to the first sin (Original Sin).  Adam followed Eve's temptation.
8. This caused a need for redemption.
9. The Word was to be made flesh to bring redemption.
10. In order for the Incarnation to take place, there must be a spotless vessel to house the sinless humanity of God.
11. Mary was conceived immaculately and impeccably.  That is to say excluded from Original Sin, so that she could bear the Word made Flesh.
12. Mary's exclusion from sin, included all sin.  She therefore could not sin, because she did not know what sin was.  It was not part of her nature.
13. Mary's redemption took place at her conception, as opposed to at her death like all other humans.

I cannot make it more succinct. That is also leaving out a lot of explanation.  Explanation, btw is not verbosity.  When you are dealing with noncorporeal things, the only way to explain them is with words.  Sometimes the explanation is longer.  

 

 

[Anomaly]

Lol. The point is why didn't God make creatures unable to sin and avoided the fall?   It seems it was possible because Mary was but Adam wasn't.  

[KnightofChrist]

Adam wasn't created to give birth to Christ.

[Anomaly]

No need for Christ and hell if Adam was unable to sin like Mary. 

[KnightofChrist]

If Adam was unable to sin like Mary, Adam would have to give birth to Christ. For Adam to give birth to Christ as Mary did sin and hell would exist.

[Cam42]

31 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

No need for Christ and hell if Adam was unable to sin like Mary. 

Not True.  Apples and Oranges; but God didn't intend at the moment of creation to have Adam need redemption.  God is complete in the Trinity.  God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit (Ghost).  God's Word is as completely Him; as is His Spirit.  His Word was made Flesh out of necessity.  God doesn't need mankind. We need God.  The whole point (for like the 4th time now), is that Adam was to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him, so he could be happy in this world and in the next.  When Adam failed to serve Him, sin entered the world.  Not by God's doing, but man's (with the aid of Satan).  Adam chose to participate in something that was unholy.  And because of that, all mankind suffers through Original Sin.  The happy fault of this though is that God shows us a way to salvation.  This is through The Word Made Flesh, in the Incarnation.

Mary's impeccability was for one reason and one reason only.  To be able to bear the Incarnation.  EOS.  Her Immaculate Conception was for the the same reason, singularly.  Mary still needed redemption, just like all men.  It is just that her redemption was at the moment of her conception, as opposed to the moment of her death, like other men.  If Mary was not impeccable, then she could not have borne Christ Jesus.  If Mary was not Immaculately Conceived, then she could not have borne Christ Jesus.  Mary's role is wholly and completely unique in all of Salvation History, but it is a model upon which we can strive to be like.