Anomaly Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Then why did God not give Adam, Eve, Lucifer, and the rest of use free will and a sinless nature and avoid all this misery? Why create eagles and tell them they can only walk then punish them when they fail to stay on the ground? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Mary was given her special nature because she is special to God. She was saved from sin before she fell into the pit, while the rest of us are saved by being pulled out of the pit. He gave her a different choice than he gave to the Angels and man, to bare the Son of God or decline. She said yes. God gave man and the angels the choice to obey his law or decline. Man and some angels chose to decline. But the angels that obeyed now have sinless natures, they cannot sin. Those of us that die in faith will also gain a sinless nature in our glorified bodies. Man was given a second chance because of our ignorance and that we are also special to God, while the fallen angels received no second chance because they fully understood their actions. God gave us all the choice to do his will or decline because he does not want a race of automatons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 (edited) That doesn't explain why he balanced almost all souls in the razor edge of Heaven or Hell. Is Mary more or less human? Is the answer "it's a Mystery why God made humans that can end up in hell. It's not that we have to be able to choose heaven or hell to be able to love God? So Mary was not able to reject God? What kind of love is that? It's programmed in. Mary is the Automaton. Edited December 9, 2015 by Anomaly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 (edited) Mary is just as human as any of us. She is just blessed more by God than the rest of us. I don't agree he placed us on a razor edge of Heaven and Hell. He gave us all the choice to go along with his will or decline. It's not a mystery, he gave Mary the choice to bare the Son of God or to decline, he gave the rest of us the choice of heaven or decline. Mary is not an automaton her "yes" was freely chosen and meant a great deal. Edited December 9, 2015 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 But wouldn't Mary's no have been a sin? Saying no to God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 8 minutes ago, Anomaly said: But wouldn't Mary's no have been a sin? Saying no to God. No. Unlike the choice given to the Angels and Adam it was not a demand, or a law that she must obey, it was a request. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Still doesn't explain why God had to allow the possibility of sin in the first place when Mary could be fully human, have free will, and not have a sinful nature. Why put all those souls in danger of eternal torture? Why did the Angels and other humans not have the same free will and sufficient grace from the get go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Oh sure it does. Man and the angels were given their choice to love and obey God or rebel and they chose. Mary was special and exception to the rule and was given another choice. She was special and was given exception because she was chosen to be the Ark of the New Covenant. And God doesn't put us in danger of eternal torture we do, but as a former Catholic you know that. I think you ask that loaded question out of anger. Adam and Eve and all the Angels were given sufficient graces to avoid sinning, but man and some of the angels chose to sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 4 hours ago, Cam42 said: Whatever, I don't know why that showed up on top. Anyhow, the question comes to this. Was Mary full of grace? Yes. If Mary was full of grace, was she participating fully in God's salvific plan of salvation? Yes. If Mary sinned or could conceivably sin, would she still be full of grace? No. Is it possible for Mary to be full of grace and sin? No. Mary could not sin, because of the graces afforded to her at the time of her conception. In other words, because of her Immaculate Conception, she would always do God's will. Insofar as this is the case, she could not sin. It is perfectly valid and perfectly sound to say, Mary could not sin. Sin was not part of her nature, as defined by God. She did not know sin. Her every free choice was to do what God wanted her to do. She was free from sin and therefore could not choose it, due to her not having it be part of her nature. I think you have a good argument. Heck. You may even be right. But it is not dogma. It is not something that must be assented to. And I think it is something that reasonable people can disagree upon, as evidenced by the previous 29 pages of this thread. Peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 20 minutes ago, KnightofChrist said: Oh sure it does. Man and the angels were given their choice to love and obey God or rebel and they chose. Mary was special and exception to the rule and was given another choice. She was special and was given exception because she was chosen to be the Ark of the New Covenant. And God doesn't put us in danger of eternal torture we do, but as a former Catholic you know that. I think you ask that loaded question out of anger. Adam and Eve and all the Angels were given sufficient graces to avoid sinning, but man and some of the angels chose to sin. No anger at this point Its the breakdown in logic. If Mary could be fully human, have free will, AND be graced to not even be able to sin, then why not all the rest of us? I see no logical reason other than the capriciousness of a God. Doesn't make sense. Now if Mary had the capacity to sin, but did not because she made the right choices and did not lose Original Grace that is a different matter. That is more logical and answers that Mary was theoretically capable of sin, but did not. It is also compliant with Jesus being tempted, but chose not to. Free will is free will as far as choices that have eternal consequences. Its disengenous to say our fate is not balanced on a razor when repeatedly we are warned how few get to heaven. No wonder Sister Teresa was discouraged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 (edited) I see no break down in logic, I see a different order in the gift of a sinless nature by God to his creatures, but that's not illogical. God gave Mary her sinless nature when she was conceived, he will give us our sinless nature when we join Mary in heaven. Make's sense to me. But, it's time for me to hit the road. Cam can answer your questions, he should anyway since you and he were talking before I jumped in. Edited December 9, 2015 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Just now, KnightofChrist said: I see no break down in logic, I see a different order in the give of a sinless nature to God's creatures, but that's not illogical. God gave Mary her sinless nature when she was conceived, he will give us our sinless nature when we join Mary in heaven. Make's sense to me. But, it's time for me to hit the road. Cam can answer your questions, he should anyway since you and he were talking before I jumped in. Srsly. I can understand your responses though. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 53 minutes ago, Peace said: I think you have a good argument. Heck. You may even be right. But it is not dogma. It is not something that must be assented to. And I think it is something that reasonable people can disagree upon, as evidenced by the previous 29 pages of this thread. Peace You do understand that theological opinion is still a valid source of theology, right? Not every conversation has to be about dogma or dogma. At no point have I said that this is doctrinal or dogmatic. What I am saying and have said for 10 years is that Mary could not sin. Logically, it is sound. Logically it is valid. The point of this conversation is to open our eyes to the mystery of God in a way that is rational and explainable. It is good to see that this isn't lost on you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 14 hours ago, Cam42 said: You do understand that theological opinion is still a valid source of theology, right? Right. 14 hours ago, Cam42 said: Not every conversation has to be about dogma or dogma. At no point have I said that this is doctrinal or dogmatic. Hmm. Well. That isn't quite how I remember the conversation. Carry on. 14 hours ago, Cam42 said: What I am saying and have said for 10 years is that Mary could not sin. Thanks for the clarifying that. 14 hours ago, Cam42 said: Logically, it is sound. Logically it is valid. The point of this conversation is to open our eyes to the mystery of God in a way that is rational and explainable. It is good to see that this isn't lost on you. Well. I am glad that you think it is good. I aim to please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 On 10/28/2005, 8:04:42, Cam42 said: That is an important understanding. She is full of grace. It is not the same as when we are baptized, the relationship of God's Grace to Mary is totally different and unique. It is a characteristic of Mary. It is part of her being. She is not eveloped in it as we are. The sanctifying grace is not given sacramentally, as it is with you and I, but rather it was granted from the moment of conception. What do you do with Acts 6:8 ? (RSVCE) And Stephen, full of grace and power, did great wonders and signs among the people. Unless you are attributing the inability to sin to Stephen as well, it would appear that being "full of grace" does not mean that one is incapable of sinning. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now