Apotheoun Posted May 16, 2010 Share Posted May 16, 2010 [quote name='Michele' date='16 May 2010 - 01:02 AM' timestamp='1273993355' post='2111350'] Adam and Eve were created with free will, and it was Eve's fault that they originated sin. They didn't know what sin was until they disobed God and entered into the knowledge of good and evil. Then they were able to sin and they passed on original sin to all their descendants. But Mary is the NEW Eve - before the Redeemer came into the world through his beloved co-redemptrix: Mary Immaculate, the Blessed Theotokos, He preserved her from original sin at the moment of her conception: "O Mary conceived without sin..." Without ever having the stain of original sin, it was not within her power to ever sin, nor did she have any desire to sin. Since she was pre-redeemed from original sin and immune to comitting actual sins, she had no concupisence like the rest of us. She was both able not to sin, and unable to sin. Being totally full of grace, and cooperating with this fullness of grace, she had no room for sinful thoughts, words, or actions. Other mothers make mistakes of their own fault from their sinfulness, not that God doesn't love all the rest of the little children, but the Blessed Mother needed to be the best mother in the world in order to be the Mother of God... there was no room for errors in the upbringing of the Child Jesus - it was such a glorious responsibility that God endowed her with the perfect ability to love - in order to conceive by the Holy Spirit and Give birth to God who is Love, Mary had to be all Love. So God is Love, and Mary is the beautiful Mother of Love. The single most magnificent creature God ever made... This is why she was able to be assumed into heaven body and soul, because of her immaculateness. It is a good thing to continue contemplating the mysteries of her life and the glories of Mary, because it is impossible to praise and honor her enough. It may seem natural to accept that Jesus himself was sinless, having no original sin, and no personal sins. Although he was attacked by temptations in the desert, he did not wish to give into the temptations. Therefore it may be logical to think of it that way - that although Mary may have had the temptations of the world around her, she was innocent of any cooperation with the temptations. Plus, she was well taken care of by holy people her whole life - by St. Anne and Joachim, then by St. Joseph and the grown Jesus, then by St. John. She didn't sin with any of them. The immaculate conception of Mary, and the virginal conception of Jesus - are totally sin-free. While other people are in need of repentance, Mary is able to help us repent, not that she knew all about repentance from personal experience, but because she suffered as an innocent bystander when her Son died on the Cross and she saw the original vision of Divine Mercy... "Mary, then, is the one who has the deepest knowledge of the mystery of God's mercy. She knows its price, she knows how great it is" (Dives in Misericordia, 9). So Mary is able to be the Mediatrix of all Graces because she is full of grace and capable of distributing them from her Merciful Son. [/quote] Very interesting speculative position, but I do not agree. Only God is unable to sin. Mary, as a human being, possessed the natural gift of freedom and the hypostatic ability to use or abuse that created freedom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamiller42 Posted May 17, 2010 Share Posted May 17, 2010 (edited) In addition, angels have fallen out of heaven by turning from God. If they could choose to turn from God in such a place and state, surely Mary could have. I am surprised by the poll results. Edited May 17, 2010 by kamiller42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted May 17, 2010 Share Posted May 17, 2010 I still think that by a special gift God did not permit Mary to sin. The souls in Purgatory, Heaven and in Hell are not permitted by God to sin yet all retain their free will. So Mary would be like the souls in Purgatory. She has free will, is able to suffer, yet is not permitted to sin. This is a special gift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michele Posted May 17, 2010 Share Posted May 17, 2010 [quote name='Michele' date='16 May 2010 - 01:02 AM' timestamp='1273993355' post='2111350'] Adam and Eve were created with free will,[/quote] ... p.s. the Blessed Virgin Mary was not deprived of the gift of free will, rather she was blessed with the fullness of grace which enabled her to have perfect uniformity with God's will in everything. we should strive to imitate her, and ask for her prayer and guidance to discern God's will in our lives too -- not only what the next step in our vocation is, but what is the holiest thing to say and do from day to day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted May 17, 2010 Share Posted May 17, 2010 [quote]The souls in Purgatory, Heaven and in Hell are not permitted by God to sin yet all retain their free will. [/quote] That sounds confusing. How can someone be refused something and yet still have the free will to do it? I always thought that we were unable to sin in heaven/hell/purgatory, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michele Posted May 18, 2010 Share Posted May 18, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Selah' date='17 May 2010 - 04:44 PM' timestamp='1274136290' post='2112256'] : I always thought that we were unable to sin in heaven/hell/purgatory, etc. [/quote] when we reach eternal life we'll be done being judged. now is the time of mercy - Jesus is the merciful Savior rather than the just judge as he will have to be at the last judgment. those in hell will be punished for their sins. those in purgatory will be purified of their sins to get into heaven. those in heaven will be pure and no longer subject to temptations to sin. in heaven, only God and everybody who loves God will be present; satan's temptations have no power there. the Our Father prayer includes: "Thy Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven." Mary Immaculate always did God's will on earth as it is in heaven, which is why she was able to be assumed both body and soul into heaven - no need for further purification, because she was as pure as can be (Virgo Purissima). God's Will reigns in heaven. imagine an eternity of joy with no more trials of faith, doubts, temptations, sorrows, nor pain. heaven will be all grace, beauty, joy, happiness, peace, and love. there will not even be a need for hope, because it'll be fulfilled completely, so there'll be nothing left to hope for, because everthing hoped for (ultimately God) has been attained in heaven - wrapped up in the Beautific Vision. this will not ever get boring, because it will not feel empty and lonely - it will be ... glorious. won't it be wonderful to have no need to go to confession anymore? won't it be great to be totally unattached to sin? won't it be refreshing to be in a place of refreshment, light, and peace forever? heaven is where i want to go, for sure! there's a long journey ahead before reaching the final destination. life's story will be over - but what happens after "the end" will be worth living for ever and ever. St. Faustina wrote, "I saw how the Angels and the Saints of the Lord give glory to God. The glory of God is so great that I dare not try to describe it, because I would not be able to do so, and souls might think that what I have written is all there is. Saint Paul, I understand now why you did not want to describe heaven, but only said that eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man what God has prepared for those who love him...Now I have seen the way in which I adore God; oh how miserable it is! And what a tiny drop it is in comparison to that perfect heavenly glory. (Diary - 1604)" Edited May 18, 2010 by Michele Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michele Posted May 19, 2010 Share Posted May 19, 2010 (edited) [quote name='kafka' date='17 May 2010 - 03:47 PM' timestamp='1274132832' post='2112227'] I still think that by a special gift God did not permit Mary to sin. The souls in Purgatory, Heaven and in Hell are not permitted by God to sin yet all retain their free will. So Mary would be like the souls in Purgatory. She has free will, is able to suffer, yet is not permitted to sin. This is a special gift. [/quote] the Blessed Mother indeed was blessed with the special gift: her Immaculate Conception - being free from original sin... "O Mary conceived without sin" ... which affected every corner of her personality and life ... developing her perfect theological virtues of faith, hope, and love - her free will was untarnished by any attachments to sin so she was able to follow Christ the Way, the Truth, and the Life - to be both mother and disciple of Jesus. Mary has compassion for the souls in Purgatory - who are there because they died in the friendship of God but with need for the refiners fire to purify them enough to enter heaven without any sinfulness whatsoever (no permission to sin in heaven for sure!) I think the reason the souls in purgatory don't sin anymore is because only their souls are there without their bodies (which are left on earth, buried etc.) it'd be pretty challenging to sin without a body, wouldn't it! St. Faustina wrote that the souls in purgatory call Mary the "Star of the Sea" and that she brings them refreshment - however, the Immaculate Mother was priviledged to pass over purgatory and be assumed - by the power of the Holy Spirit - straight to heaven with her soul still in her body (unlike us whose souls leave our dead bodies to be buried until the final resurrection of the dead at the end of time). Our Lady's soul didn't have to go through any purifications - it was already 100% pure and good; she didn't need to suffer in purgatory (like we will have to most likely) but she did suffer in her life: especially as the Mother of the Redeemer, at the foot of the Cross of her Son. Going to heaven, and being crowned as Queen of Heaven, she loves us as the tenderest of mothers, praying for us constantly and growing gardens full of heavenly roses from all our rosaries we pray! Edited May 19, 2010 by Michele Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 This is a wonderful thread where Camster was teaching well worth a reread from the beginning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1130631406' post='773674'] If Mary could have sinned, would she have been full of grace? Ding, Ding, Ding.....you just made the move.....do you see it? Look at your last paragraph. Apply that to what I have been saying all along. And you will see that you are in complete agreement with what I have been saying all along. The board asked one question then proceeded to try and prove another. Could Mary sin? No. That is what was asked. You just answered that the same way that I have been. However, was she capable of sin? THAT is a totally different question. And the answer to that is different. Yes, she was capable of sin, but chose not to, every single time. God knew that she could not sin, PRECISELY because her character would not allow it. Effacious grace. However, "being capable" is a different conversation than "could she" sin. Could Mary sin? No. It would have been against her character. Was she capable? Yes, insofar as she was a human, however her choices would always lead to the good, so she would not sin. So, in a round about way, she could not sin, because her free will would not let her sin. See your move? I held the same line all the way through. Incidentally, Al was closest to answering this when he was going on about the Greek. He almost had it....all he had to do was continue to work from the Wikipedia website and he would have had it. [/quote] This is one of the best posts I have read here in a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 I agree with whatever Aloysius had to say in this thread. Ipso facto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1306551171' post='2246953'] I agree with whatever Aloysius had to say in this thread. Ipso facto. [/quote] You seem to be very confident in Aloysius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 The answer, btw, is still no. Mary could not have sinned. That would be contratry to dogma. Read Ineffabilis, by Pope Pius IX. It's clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 10 minutes ago, Cam42 said: The answer, btw, is still no. Mary could not have sinned. That would be contratry to dogma. Read Ineffabilis, by Pope Pius IX. It's clear. I dunno about all that. Adam was created without original sin and yet did sin. Doesn't your conclusion also deny free-will? But I am guessing all of that was discussed somewhere back in the prior 28 pages of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Just now, Peace said: I dunno about all that. Adam was created without original sin and yet did sin. Doesn't your conclusion also deny free-will? But I am guessing all of that was discussed somewhere back in the prior 28 pages of this thread. Mary was conceived without sin. Adam was created before sin entered the world. A subtle difference, but nevertheless a difference. Mary's choice was always to do God's will. That is the embodiment of free will. By her very nature, Mary found true freedom in her choice, because she always chose not to sin. Adam's nature was corrupted by his lack of faith in God's will. Mary never wavered in her faith in God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 15 minutes ago, Peace said: I dunno about all that. Adam was created without original sin and yet did sin. Doesn't your conclusion also deny free-will? But I am guessing all of that was discussed somewhere back in the prior 28 pages of this thread. To embrace sin is to embrace slavery, not true liberty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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