Could Mary have sinned?

[Apotheoun]

As I said earlier in this thread, salvation ([i]theosis[/i]) is all by God's grace, and all by the exercise of each man's free will.

Here is what Cardinal Newman said about it in one of his homilies addressed to mixed congregations:

"How man is able fully and entirely to do what he will, while God accomplishes His own supreme will also, is hidden from us, as it is hidden from us how God created out of nothing, or how He foresees the future, or how His attribute of justice is compatible with His attribute of love. It is one of those 'hidden things which belong unto the Lord our God;' but 'what are revealed,' as the inspired writer goes on to say, 'are for us and our children even for everlasting.' And this is what is revealed, viz.: – [i]on the one hand, that our salvation depends on ourselves, and on the other, that it depends on God[/i]. Did we not depend on ourselves, we should become careless and reckless, nothing we did or did not do having any bearing on our salvation; did we not depend on God, we should be presumptuous and self-sufficient. I began by telling you, my brethren, and I shall proceed in what is to come more distinctly to tell you, that you depend upon God; [i]but such admonitions necessarily imply your dependence upon yourselves also[/i]; for, did not your salvation in some sufficient sense depend on yourself, what would be the use of appealing to you not to forget your dependence on God? It is because you have so great a share in your own salvation, that it avails, that it is pertinent, to speak to you of God's part in it."

[kafka]

I dont have a perfect understanding. The way Grace and Will work in harmony is an absolute mystery. How is it that God touches the will moving it toward Himself without forcing it? I dont know.

I know that sanctifying grace is supernatural, the will is natural so grace is in one sense greater than the will while in another sense they are both equal in necessity. Obvsiously grace without the will is meaningless, yet the will without grace is truly damaged in some way.

I know that sanctifying grace is a free and gratuitous gift of Christ it cannot be merited. Actual graces may be merited. I need to explore this more.

I know that sanctifying grace operates prior to the will and also simultaneous to the will's movement in cooperation.

I know that the will is an autonomous/independent principle yet grace does not compromise or tamper with it. Its autonomy and independence remains intact in spite of grace.

I know that the will is created to love God and neighbor. It is designed for God. It is predetermined in its design to love God, however in its raw state apart from grace it cannot accomplish this true love and reach its true end and goal for which it was created by its own power. If the will could accomplish the impossible and jump the infinite gap between its own finiteness and God's Infiniteness then there would be no need of Christ and Christianity would crumble. One could accomplish one's own salvation.

Free will remains intact in the state of grace as well as in the state of sin, yet the state of grace is a state of freedom and the state of sin is the state of slavery. One who performs good deeds in cooperation with grace is free. He is progressing toward God. Sanctifying grace sets one free. One who commits a sin is a slave to sin. He is regressing toward nothingness. A serious sin enslaves and damages the will. One is seemingly less than human when in a habitual state of sin, that is why we call the extreme cases of this regression Monsters like Hitler.

The state of sanctifying grace orders the will in all that it chooses toward God as the end and goal. It is a foundation of the house of one's soul. It is the narrow gate. The state of sin disorders the will toward anything and everything other than God as its false end. It is a state of delusion. It is like chaff in the wind. It is the broad way to destruction.

And I know that Mary was unable to sin first because of the unique gifts of grace lavished on her while the independence and autonomy of the will remained intact in choosing God in everything. These gift were free and gratuitous. The Immaculate Conception: free and gratuituous, the unique grace of sinlessness: free and gratuitous, the Divine Motherhood: free and gratuitous. These free and gratuitous gifts were merited by Christ and lavished upon her by Christ to work out her salvation which was to assist God with the work of Redemption prior to anything she earned by her own merit dependent on these gifts.

It is a mystery. God is simply awesome.

I realize I need to develop everything more but this sort of understanding is valid as far as I know. I like to emphasize grace because I need it to go to God.

Edited February 25, 2010 by kafka

[kafka]

made some edits above.

[Apotheoun]

Nice essay, and even though I do not agree with everything that you have said in it, it is still better than what you said at the beginning of this thread. Nevertheless, I prefer the synergist doctrine of Eastern Christianity.

May God grant you many joyful years.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Apotheoun

[kafka]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 February 2010 - 03:50 PM' timestamp='1267131054' post='2062958']
Nice essay, and even though I do not agree with everything that you have said in it, it is still better than what you said at the beginning of this thread. Nevertheless, I prefer the synergist doctrine of Eastern Christianity.

May God grant you many joyful years.
[/quote]
thanks. I realize that some of the things I say need to be more thoroughly thought out before posting in the future, especially with difficult matters like grace and free will. I've been rash lately. Mea culpa.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='kafka' date='25 February 2010 - 01:56 PM' timestamp='1267131368' post='2062961']
thanks. I realize that some of the things I say need to be more thoroughly thought out before posting in the future, especially with difficult matters like grace and free will. I've been rash lately. Mea culpa.
[/quote]
No worries. My own position can be put succinctly like this: Mary, through the graces she was given and the ascetic discipline she exercised, was able not to sin, but was not unable to sin.

[add]

Replying to Could Mary have sinned?
believe she did not
it has been preached
i will take it on faith
the answer to the question is no

it was genetic
as in her offspring, i believe

Edited February 25, 2010 by apparently

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 Februar y 2010 - 03:00 PM' timestamp='1267131636' post='2062963']
Mary, through the graces she was given and the ascetic discipline she exercised, was able not to sin, but was not unable to sin.
[/quote]

I approve this statement.

[kafka]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 February 2010 - 04:00 PM' timestamp='1267131636' post='2062963']
No worries. My own position can be put succinctly like this: Mary, through the graces she was given and the ascetic discipline she exercised, was able not to sin, but was not unable to sin.
[/quote]
I go with unable to sin.

At this point my thoughts go something like this:

Immaculate Conception is her unique Baptism. She is created preserved from original sin in the state of sanctifying grace. This is a free and gratuitious gift of God.

The sinlessness of Mary is her unique Confirmation. After her first instant (or perhaps when she reached the age of reason) she is given an additional gift perhaps one could call it a charism of impeccability which perpetually orientates her soul toward the promptings of sanctifying grace throughout her life. This would include the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit which theologians teach are perpetual supernatural gifts. The charism of impeccability perpetually confirms her soul in grace while keeping the autonomy and independence of her will, intellect and memory intact.

I need to develop this line of thought more.
[quote name='apparently' date='25 February 2010 - 05:08 PM' timestamp='1267135702' post='2062974']
Replying to Could Mary have sinned?
believe she did not
it has been preached
i will take it on faith
the answer to the question is no

it was genetic
as in her offspring, i believe
[/quote]
it cant be genetic, since sins proceed from the will and intellect working together. These are spiritual not physical.

Edited February 26, 2010 by kafka

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='kafka' date='26 February 2010 - 02:51 PM' timestamp='1267217461' post='2063290']
I go with unable to sin.

At this point my thoughts go something like this:

Immaculate Conception is her unique Baptism. She is created preserved from original sin in the state of sanctifying grace. This is a free and gratuitious gift of God.

The sinlessness of Mary is her unique Confirmation. After her first instant (or perhaps when she reached the age of reason) she is given an additional gift perhaps one could call it a charism of impeccability which perpetually orientates her soul toward the promptings of sanctifying grace throughout her life. The charism of impeccability perpetually confirms her soul in grace while keeping the autonomy and independence of her will, intellect and memory intact.

I need to develop this line of thought more.

[/quote]
In your opinion, would it have been possible for Mary to sin, not really in the way "normal" people give in to temptation, but in the form of a conscious rejection of the gifts that she'd been given? If she'd decided one day "I will not serve"?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='kafka' date='26 February 2010 - 01:51 PM' timestamp='1267217461' post='2063290']
I go with unable to sin.
[/quote]
Yeah, I know. Alas, on that point we disagree.

[kafka]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='26 February 2010 - 03:55 PM' timestamp='1267217712' post='2063295']
In your opinion, would it have been possible for Mary to sin, not really in the way "normal" people give in to temptation, but in the form of a conscious rejection of the gifts that she'd been given? If she'd decided one day "I will not serve"?
[/quote]
I dont understand the question. Where would this conscious decision come from? Sin is alien to human nature in its raw created state. She was created with gifts and confirmed in them beyond Eve before she could even make a conscious decision.

The reason Adam and Eve sinned is somewhat of a mystery. Eve had no concupiscence or evil worldly influences. The only possibility of her sinning in my mind is a combination of A. God had not yet assumed her into Heaven. B. The existance of the tree of good and evil from which she was commanded not to eat. This might be a figure of some revealed knowledge God gave Adam and Eve about the evil as a test C. An evil influence decieves/tempts her.

Her will is a predetermined design to choose good, but her intellect is decieved into thinking the fruit of the tree of good and evil which is a figure of something perhaps pride is inherently good when it is in fact inherently evil. So she chooses it against promptings of sanctifying grace which she felt in her conscience. Then she acts as an evil societal influence to Adam. Adam still had no concupiscence so the evil society of Eve tempted him and he failed against the prompting of grace.

Adam and Eve are not as great as Jesus and Mary. God's relationship with Mary is singular and unique. Eve is only a weak foreshadowing of Mary. Mary was full of grace and found favor with God first and foremost because she was bestowed with so many unique gifts by God Himself beyond Eve. The only tree Mary spiritually ate from was the Cross of Christ. Her special gifts from God enabled her succeed perfectly in everything while keeping the autonomy and indepedence of her will intact. Her intellect was full of wisdom, understanding and knowledge which are the gifts of the Holy Spirit. She could not be decieved by anyone or anything.

I also believe she had no concupiscence, but that is another matter.

Ultimately these are hard questions to answer so my responses might be insufficient at this point in my life. They are speculative and I am not a trained scholar or theologian though at the same time unashamed to work out problems on a forum to the best of my ability.

Edited February 26, 2010 by kafka

[Nihil Obstat]

Well maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but here's where I'm coming from:
Satan and his angels fell without temptation. They had no reason for their rejection really, other than that they wouldn't serve God. Nothing prompted that other than their own free will. Could Mary have done the same?

[kafka]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='26 February 2010 - 04:56 PM' timestamp='1267221409' post='2063350']
Well maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but here's where I'm coming from:
Satan and his angels fell without temptation. They had no reason for their rejection really, other than that they wouldn't serve God. Nothing prompted that other than their own free will. Could Mary have done the same?
[/quote]
just a side note that I had in mind last night. Adam and Eve also did not have the Sacraments, so even though they were holy and innocent, in some sense they did lack the gifts Christians recieve after the Coming of Christ like Confirmation and the Eucharist.

The Fall of the Angels is even more obscure than the Fall of Adam and Eve. My basic understanding runs something like this:

God created the angels before he created the Universe. The spiritual is higher than the physical so that would make sense:

{1:1} In the beginning, God created heaven and earth.

Heaven being the spiritual realm of the angels and earth being the unfolding of the cosmos leading up to the formation of earth. The angels were created in the state of sanctifying grace yet they were not given the beautific vision. Instead they were given tasks by God to assist with the unfolding of the cosmos. This could have lasted literally billions of years.

The angels are pure spirits. They dwell in a spiritual realm connected to the cosmos in some way. They have the faculties of will and intellect and memory just like the souls of humans. Their social life is much like that of humans on earth. They have names and communicate with eachother in a spiritual language both beyond the comprehension of men. Their society is structured into a hierarchy. Some of the angels were probably friends with others according to the proximaty of their tasks.

Probably near the time earth was complete God revealed to them his plan for the human race. He revealed Christ on the Cross and that they were to worship and serve him. Christ and the Cross is a mystery, no one will ever fully comprehend it, even the angels and they had not yet recieved the immediate vision of God. This was their test. So what happened was some of them maybe even just one, began to doubt and deliberate about this revelation. Why should we serve a nature lower than ourselves? Or something of the sort. So instead of obeying God in an act of Faith some decided to rebel against God's plan by rejecting it, thus losing sanctifying grace. This is roughly the theological opinon of the scholastics.

Satan before he fell was Lucifer. He was probably one of the greatest angels, an archangel, who had a high task and had a lot of influence in the structure of their society. Once he fell he would have been an evil influence to many of the other angels. That is why in my opinion Christ called him a liar and murderer from the beginning. He began spreading lies about God's plan and was the indirect cause of many of the fallen angels murdering the sanctifying grace in their spirits by rejecting God's Revelation. For grace is the life of the soul. As many of the angels began to reject God a battle ensued:

{12:7} And there was a great battle in heaven. Michael and his Angels were battling with the dragon, and the dragon was fighting, and so were his angels.
{12:8} But they did not prevail, and a place for them was no longer found in heaven.
{12:9} And he was thrown out, that great dragon, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduces the whole world. And he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.

God was with Michael and the good angels. They cast some into hell and others were cast down from the heavens to earth in order to roam the earth in God's all wise plan. The Fall of the angels happened before Adam and Eve since Satan was in the Garden. And he assumed Michael and the good angels into Heaven. So from then on they experience the beautific vision while they continue to perform tasks for God and battle the fallen angels on earth according to God's will.

So ultimately my point is that the Fall of the Angels was not caused by their free will alone, though the choice does determine oneself, in the end it works together with intellect and memory. Everything created by God is inherently good, the will, the intellect, the memory. The Fall of the Angels is somewhat of a mystery but their choice must have been influenced by the exultation of their intellects over God's Revelation and Plan of the Incarnation which he revealed to them as a test. And this is fitting for goes to Heaven without accepting and knowing Jesus Christ.

So that is roughly my understanding. Some of the things I said are supported by Scripture but I dont want to spend the time looking up all the verses now.

Edited February 27, 2010 by kafka

[kafka]

Here are a couple of quotes from Germain Grisez's The Way of the Lord Jesus. He is considered the greatest moral theologian in the Church over the past century and is known for his holiness:

Free choice is the beginning of one’s own action in Christian life; the freedom of the children of God is the end. Even now we share in this end, although not as perfectly as we hope to do in heaven. The more we love God, the less sin has a hold over us, the less fearful we are of death, the less we even notice that there is a moral law. Nothing is impossible for God, and so nothing is impossible for those who act out of the love—which is the power—of God (see Lk 1.37; 11.13; 18.27).

In talking about free choice and moral responsibility, it is important always to make it clear that the two go together. So-called freedom of conscience often means a claim to do as one pleases in disregard of moral norms. The freedom of God’s children is not a license to ignore God’s commandments, whose truth the Church explains and defends; rather, the freedom of God’s children, received by the gift of the Spirit, liberates conscience by divine love (see Rom 5.5; 8.1–17). Thus the law of God is written on one’s heart (see Jer 31.33; Rom 6.15–23), and one can do as one pleases, for nothing is pleasing but what pleases God (see Gal 5.13–26).

http://www.twotlj.org/G-1-2-C.html