Could Mary have sinned?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='apparently' date='20 February 2010 - 07:18 PM' timestamp='1266718719' post='2060196']
In this dogmatic statement, the phrase "having completed the course of her earthly life", leaves open the question of whether the Virgin Mary died before her assumption or whether she was assumed before death; both possibilities are allowed.
[/quote]
Perhaps that is so for Western Christians, but anyone who knows the prayers of the Byzantine Rite feast of the Dormition knows that the same latitude is not given to Eastern Christians. The prayers of the Byzantine liturgy affirm the death of the Theotokos as historical fact, and even speaks about the Apostles placing her body in the tomb for three days.

It would be most disrespectful of the Apostles to bury her alive.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Slappo]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='19 February 2010 - 08:55 PM' timestamp='1266641702' post='2059802']
"Thus St. John Damascene, an outstanding herald of this traditional truth, spoke out with powerful eloquence when he compared the bodily Assumption of the loving Mother of God with her other prerogatives and privileges. 'It was fitting that she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth, should keep her own body free from all corruption [b]even after death[/b]. It was fitting that she, who had carried the Creator as a child at her breast, should dwell in the divine tabernacles. It was fitting that the spouse, whom the Father had taken to himself, should live in the divine mansions. It was fitting that she, who had seen her Son upon the cross and who had thereby received into her heart the sword of sorrow which she had escaped in the act of giving birth to him, should look upon him as he sits with the Father. It was fitting that God's Mother should possess what belongs to her Son, and that she should be honored by every creature as the Mother and as the handmaid of God.'" (Pope Pius XII, Munificentissimus Deus, 21, my emphasis).
[/quote]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='19 February 2010 - 06:02 PM' timestamp='1266631361' post='2059740']
Whether or not it seems logical to you, it is an ancient tradition of the Church that our Lady died before her Assumption. If she died, then she certainly experienced the effects of original sin.
[/quote]

This is a fallacy. Certainty to Mary's death does not lead to certainty to her experiencing the effects of original sin. The effects of original sin are corruption of the body. This is why we die today, a breakdown of cells, organs, etc, eventually leading inevitably to death.

That Mary died does not mean she died from corruption. There are several other possible means of death (although most highly unlikely/impossible for Mary) that do not include the breakdown of the body: Murder, falling out a window, killed by an animal, etc. One of these that I've heard as a possibility for Mary would be: Dying of pure ecstasy/love for God. I've heard stories (if they are true I know not) of saints/others that literally died of ecstasy.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='20 February 2010 - 07:01 PM' timestamp='1266721289' post='2060229']
Perhaps that is so for Western Christians, but anyone who knows the prayers of the Byzantine Rite feast of the Dormition knows that the same latitude is not given to Eastern Christians. The prayers of the Byzantine liturgy affirm the death of the Theotokos as historical fact, and even speaks about the Apostles placing her body in the tomb for three days.

It would be most disrespectful of the Apostles to bury her alive.
[/quote]

I too believe in Mary's death, as to how she died I know not.

But... lex orandi lex credendi. I would have no qualms with attending a Byzantine Liturgy on the feast of the Dormition.

[Apotheoun]

I think people are over thinking the issue. Mortality - according to scripture (see Roman 5:12) - is an effect of the ancestral sin, but just because a person is mortal it does not follow that he is sinful. After all, Christ assumed our mortal condition.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Slappo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='20 February 2010 - 07:10 PM' timestamp='1266721809' post='2060237']
I think people are over thinking the issue. Mortality - according to scripture (see Roman 5:12) - is an effect of the ancestral sin, but just because a person is mortal it does not follow that he is sinful. After all, Christ assumed our mortal condition.
[/quote]

Although he is by no means infallible, Hahn's interpretation of Genesis 2 is that Satan threatened to kill Adam and Eve if they did not partake of the fruit.

Satan's threat would be no threat at all if the immortality of Original Man included no possibility at all of physical death.


EDIT: I should add. I've seen definitions of immortality that mean one cannot die whatsoever, and definitions that mean one is not liable to corruption.

See Highlander for example

Edited February 21, 2010 by Slappo

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Slappo' date='20 February 2010 - 09:17 PM' timestamp='1266722275' post='2060242']
Although he is by no means infallible, Hahn's interpretation of Genesis 2 is that Satan threatened to kill Adam and Eve if they did not partake of the fruit.
Satan's threat would be no threat at all if the immortality of Original Man included no possibility at all of physical death.
[/quote]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='20 February 2010 - 07:22 PM' timestamp='1266715367' post='2060149']
Adam and Eve were created innocent, but with the potential to become likened unto God, i.e., a likening ([i]omoiosis[/i]) that includes immortality. In other words,[b] if they had not committed the original sin, they would have become immortal,[/b] and they would have had the ability to pass that characteristic on to their descendants. Mortality is - according to Sacred Scripture and the Holy Fathers - an effect of the ancestral sin.
[/quote]

If I'm understanding Apo's line of reasoning here, our First Parents were not in fact immortal when they fell, but such immoratality would have been a fruit of their continued existence and theosis.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='20 February 2010 - 07:32 PM' timestamp='1266723153' post='2060247']
If I'm understanding Apo's line of reasoning here, our First Parents were not in fact immortal when they fell, but such immoratality would have been a fruit of their continued existence and theosis.
[/quote]

My question though, is what was the extent of their immortality? In other words: If they resisted Satan and did not sin, could the serpent have physically killed Adam/Eve (assuming God permitted it).

[Apotheoun]

In Byzantine theology a distinction is made between man's being created in the image of God ([i]eikon Theô[/i]), and his being made in the divine likeness ([i]omoíosis Theô[/i]). The former quality - as an essential property of human nature - was possessed by Adam in full act from the first moment of his existence, while the latter quality was given to him only in potency, a potency that could only fulfilled by living a life of virtue in synergy with the divine energy. Now of course as the Genesis narrative reveals, Adam failed to "liken" (Gr., [i]omoiosis[/i], i.e., assimilate) himself to God, and by his failure he brought death to himself and to all of his descendants.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='20 February 2010 - 08:32 PM' timestamp='1266723153' post='2060247']
If I'm understanding Apo's line of reasoning here, our First Parents were not in fact immortal when they fell, but such immoratality would have been a fruit of their continued existence and theosis.
[/quote]
Yes. According to the Eastern Fathers our first parents possessed the potential to become immortal, but this potential could only become actual by living virtuously. Alas, by their disobedience Adam and Eve corrupted themselves, and they passed this mortal condition on to their descendants.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='20 February 2010 - 07:35 PM' timestamp='1266723309' post='2060250']
In Byzantine theology a distinction is made between man's being created in the image of God ([i]eikon Theô[/i]), and his being made in the divine likeness ([i]omoíosis Theô[/i]). The former quality as an essential property of human nature was possessed by Adam in full act from the first moment of his existence, while the latter quality was given to him only in potency, a potency that could only fulfilled by living a life of virtue in synergy with the divine energy. Now of course as the Genesis narrative reveals, Adam failed to "liken" (Gr., [i]omoiosis[/i], i.e., assimilate) himself to God, and by his failure he brought death to himself and to all of his descendants.
[/quote]

Understood.


This still doesn't answer my question though. Could Adam and Eve, if they had kept [i]eikon Theô[/i], have been physically killed.


Edit: Just saw your second post. Please define the term immortal. My curiosity is if you mean free of corruption, or actually free from any possibility of death.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Slappo

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Slappo' date='20 February 2010 - 08:39 PM' timestamp='1266723543' post='2060256']
This still doesn't answer my question though. Could Adam and Eve, if they had kept [i]eikon Theô[/i], have been physically killed.
[/quote]
Yes, they could be killed, because they only were potentially immortal.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Slappo' date='20 February 2010 - 08:39 PM' timestamp='1266723543' post='2060256']
Edit: Just saw your second post. Please define the term immortal. My curiosity is if you mean free of corruption, or actually free from any possibility of death.
[/quote]
Immortality, which is unending life, is a divine energy, and as such it is quality that is proper to God alone, but it can be experienced by man as a gracious gift of God, who gives man the power to participate in His own immortal being.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='20 February 2010 - 07:45 PM' timestamp='1266723958' post='2060260']
Immortality, which is unending life, is a divine energy, and as such it is quality that is proper to God alone, but it can be experienced by man as a gracious gift of God, who gives man the power to participate in His own immortal being.
[/quote]

So Mary could have died from God removing this grace from her?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Slappo' date='20 February 2010 - 08:56 PM' timestamp='1266724598' post='2060261']
So Mary could have died from God removing this grace from her?
[/quote]
Mary died because she - like all of Adam's descendants (including Christ) - was born mortal, while she was resurrected on the third day after her death because she was full of grace and lived a life of virtue.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Slappo' date='20 February 2010 - 09:56 PM' timestamp='1266724598' post='2060261']
So Mary could have died from God removing this grace from her?
[/quote]

Or the grace was never potentiated in Mary. That was my question in a few pages back. Could Mary not have acquired through her unmatched virtuousness the immortality that was potential in Eve?