Resurrexi Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 [quote name='OraProMe' date='20 February 2010 - 08:16 PM' timestamp='1266714995' post='2060142'] With that demanding tone? I don't think so mate. You can do your own research. Start off with fides et ratio and Vatican II's declaration on religious liberty. [/quote] I've read [i]Dignitatis Humanae[/i] more than once. You are making the claim that St. Thomas Aquinas said something. The burden of proof is on you to show where he said that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 [quote name='OraProMe' date='20 February 2010 - 07:16 PM' timestamp='1266714995' post='2060142'] With that demanding tone? I don't think so mate. You can do your own research. Start off with fides et ratio and Vatican II's declaration on religious liberty. [/quote] Tone aside, I would like to know where Thomas said this...I've heard it before anectodally from other people but have never found the citation. If you've read it I'd appreciate the citation as a casual google search revealed nothing and my Summa pdf is rather large. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Veridicus' date='20 February 2010 - 06:19 PM' timestamp='1266715147' post='2060145'] While I agree that Mary died, you have not convinced me that she died as an [i]effect [/i]of Original Sin despite her being preserved from all [i]stain [/i]of Original Sin.[/quote] Adam and Eve were created innocent, but with the potential to become likened unto God, i.e., a likening ([i]omoiosis[/i]) that includes immortality. In other words, if they had not committed the original sin, they would have become immortal, and they would have had the ability to pass that characteristic on to their descendants. Mortality is - according to Sacred Scripture and the Holy Fathers - an effect of the ancestral sin. Edited February 21, 2010 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 [quote name='Veridicus' date='20 February 2010 - 06:19 PM' timestamp='1266715147' post='2060145'] Is the significance of her remaining dead for 3 days to demonstrate how close her conformity to Christ was even in death? Or is it a matter of deferring the rapidity of her resurrection so that she didn't resurrect faster than Jesus sort of thing? I have no problem accepting that she was dead for three days...I just wonder the theological significance of the time period verses her dying and immediately being resurrected and assumed. [/quote] Certainly it could be piously interpreted in that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 [quote name='Veridicus' date='20 February 2010 - 08:22 PM' timestamp='1266715345' post='2060148'] Tone aside, I would like to know where Thomas said this...I've heard it before anectodally from other people but have never found the citation. If you've read it I'd appreciate the citation as a casual google search revealed nothing and my Summa pdf is rather large. [/quote] I read it in a book I picked up from a church lobby. I have neither the time or energy to scout the internet for the citation, but I trust the theologian who authored the book knew what he was talking about when he paraphrased Aquinas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='20 February 2010 - 07:22 PM' timestamp='1266715367' post='2060149'] Adam and Eve were created innocent, but with the potential to become likened unto God, i.e., a likening ([i]omoiosis[/i]) that includes immortality. In other words, if they had not committed the original sin, they would have become immortal, and they would have had the ability to pass this characteristic on to their descendants. Mortality is - according to Sacred Scripture and the Holy Fathers - an effect of the ancestral sin. [/quote] I still don't see why Mary as the New Eve who was conceived free of every stain of Original Sin would be incapable of achieving that immortality available to the first Eve. Again, this ends up making it sound like I'm arguing that she never died...I am not trying to argue this. I just don't see how she can inherit the mortal effect/defect of original sin without the stain of original sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Veridicus' date='20 February 2010 - 08:19 PM' timestamp='1266715147' post='2060145'] While I agree that Mary died, you have not convinced me that she died as an [i]effect [/i]of Original Sin despite her being preserved from all [i]stain [/i]of Original Sin. Christ who was without sin took all sin onto himself in his Passion & Death. Mary's death lacks this significant distinction. [/quote] You're right. There is a difference between our Lord's death and our Lady's death, and our Lord's ability to suffer was not a consequence of original sin. I was mistaken. Edited February 21, 2010 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 [quote name='Veridicus' date='20 February 2010 - 06:27 PM' timestamp='1266715620' post='2060154'] I still don't see why Mary as the New Eve who was conceived free of every stain of Original Sin would be incapable of achieving that immortality available to the first Eve. Again, this ends up making it sound like I'm arguing that she never died...I am not trying to argue this. I just don't see how she can inherit the mortal effect/defect of original sin without the stain of original sin. [/quote] I do not know any better how to explain it. The Byzantine tradition, where the feast of the Dormition originated, has always held that the Theotokos died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 [quote name='OraProMe' date='20 February 2010 - 08:26 PM' timestamp='1266715612' post='2060152'] I read it in a book I picked up from a church lobby. I have neither the time or energy to scout the internet for the citation, but I trust the theologian who authored the book knew what he was talking about when he paraphrased Aquinas. [/quote] I don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Resurrexi' date='20 February 2010 - 07:27 PM' timestamp='1266715626' post='2060155'] You're right. There is a difference between our Lord's death and our Lady's death, and our Lord's ability to suffer was not a consequence of original sin. [/quote] LOL. I don't want to be right. I want to understand...and I still don't feel like I'm getting it... [quote name='Apotheoun' date='20 February 2010 - 07:28 PM' timestamp='1266715694' post='2060156'] I do not know any better how to explain it. The Byzantine tradition, where the feast of the Dormition originated, has always held that the Theotokos died. [/quote] Is it part of the Deposit of Faith that [i]she died [/i]or that [i]she died because of the ancestral sin[/i]? Is the ancestral sin being the causation of her mortal end your own interpretation or is it drawn specifically from tradition? Edited February 21, 2010 by Veridicus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 [quote name='Veridicus' date='20 February 2010 - 06:28 PM' timestamp='1266715722' post='2060158'] LOL. I don't want to be right. I want to understand...and I still don't feel like I'm getting it... [/quote] You are out of luck, because you will never understand the central mystery of the faith, i.e., the Trinity, because God surpasses any form of intellectual conception or linguistic predication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 [quote name='Veridicus' date='20 February 2010 - 06:28 PM' timestamp='1266715722' post='2060158'] Is it part of the Deposit of Faith that [i]she died [/i]or that [i]she died because of the ancestral sin[/i]? Is the ancestral sin being the causation of her mortal end your own interpretation or is it drawn specifically from tradition? [/quote] I would hold the latter position to be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='20 February 2010 - 07:30 PM' timestamp='1266715843' post='2060159'] You are out of luck, because you will never understand the central mystery of the faith, i.e., the Trinity, because God surpasses any form of intellectual conception or linguistic predication. [/quote] Haha. I'm deferring the Trinity until, by the grace of God, I behold the Beatific Vision and then I have eternity to grow in knowledge and love. FOR NOW, I'm just trying to figure out WHY Mary died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='20 February 2010 - 07:32 PM' timestamp='1266715937' post='2060162'] I would hold the latter position to be the case. [/quote] Apo what you quoted had two sentences with each sentence containing two juxtaposed possibilities. Are you stating that you feel it is part of Tradition that she died due to inheriting mortality from the ancestral sin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 [quote name='Veridicus' date='20 February 2010 - 06:33 PM' timestamp='1266715987' post='2060163'] Haha. I'm deferring the Trinity until, by the grace of God, I behold the Beatific Vision and then I have eternity to grow in knowledge and love. FOR NOW, I'm just trying to figure out WHY Mary died. [/quote] The experiential knowledge of God which is had by the saints is unending, but even with that vision it is impossible to intellectually conceive God, because - to quote St. Gregory of Nyssa - the vision of God is the ". . . seeing that consists in not seeing, because that which is sought transcends all knowledge, being separated on all sides by incomprehensibility as by a kind of darkness." [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=81541"]God as Unknowable[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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