scardella Posted February 16, 2006 Author Share Posted February 16, 2006 Hey, I'm glad this topic still gets people to think and ponder and reflect on the mystery that is our faith! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 No matter what one believes, one must not defile the dogma. Remember that Mary did not sin. Also remember that insofar as she was immaculately conceived, she was freed from all sin by [i]gratia efficax[/i] given to her, freely by God and freely accepted by her at the moment of her conception. This was voiced at her Magnificat. Let's not forget, she could not sin, because she had the same human nature as Christ. She was excluded from Original Sin and she always chose the good. She could not sin, because her nature would not allow it. It is this [i]gratia efficax[/i] which precludes the Immaculate Conception from sinfulness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAF Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 (edited) [quote]She could not sin, because her nature would not allow it.[/quote] But Cam, Adam and Eve posessed Original Holiness just like Mary, and they still sinned (Adam and Eve I mean). My understanding is that she COULD have sinned (that is, she had the freedom to) but because she lacked concupiscence, her life was naturally oriented around God, and not perverted by Original Sin. she simply wasn't attracted to or inclined to it. (Or is that what you meant by saying 'her nature wouldn't allow it'?) Though I will admit that's only ignorant layman speculation. I'll hurry over to newadvent and check it out. EDIT* Jesus is a little bit more difficult to wrap your head around, I think. I mean, being fully human, shouldn't he have had the freedom to choose sin? But being fully divine, it's not only that he wouldn't sin, it's that he couldn't have. What am I missing? Edited July 15, 2006 by DAF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 (edited) [quote name='DAF' post='1024890' date='Jul 14 2006, 11:51 PM'] But Cam, Adam and Eve posessed Original Holiness just like Mary, and they still sinned (Adam and Eve I mean). My understanding is that she COULD have sinned (that is, she had the freedom to) but because she lacked concupiscence, her life was naturally oriented around God, and not perverted by Original Sin. she simply wasn't attracted to or inclined to it. (Or is that what you meant by saying 'her nature wouldn't allow it'?) Though I will admit that's only ignorant layman speculation. I'll hurry over to newadvent and check it out. EDIT* Jesus is a little bit more difficult to wrap your head around, I think. I mean, being fully human, shouldn't he have had the freedom to choose sin? But being fully divine, it's not only that he wouldn't sin, it's that he couldn't have. What am I missing? [/quote] Uh oh...not this thread again. It's like a ticking time-bomb. DAF, it's a difference between potentiality and actuality. Mary had the subjective ability to sin (that is, the ability was within her), but it was not possible that she could ever sin (that is, from God's perspective, it wasn't possible, precisely because it didn't happen...since God knows all that will happen, only the things that will happen possibly can happen, from His perspective...when we say something can happen, we speak without human uncertainty, but God's certainty allows Him to say that something that is possible for a person to do can nevertheless not happen). It's a really long, complicated thread...read it all if you want. Edited July 16, 2006 by Raphael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAF Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 No need to. You explained it very well. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyranima Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 This is a question of predestination which is a tough subject to hit on. the question we need to ask is if mary had said no would it have been a sin? Because of God's Gace mary was preserved from all sin. Basically it comes down to this, God made Mary who she was because he knew she would not refuse him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrossCuT Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 [size=1][color="FF6699"]I say Mary could not have sinned. If she had a chance of sinning God would not have chosen her as his mother. But there are alot of what ifs and what abouts...SOOO But yea. She COULD HAVE, but God knew she wouldnt and thats why he chose her? [/color][/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 It's basically the same as this question: does God know where you will be for eternity? Now, we know that the answer is yes. If you're going to hell, God knows that you will be there after you die. If you're going to heaven, God knows that, too. Therefore, it can not be that you could go anywhere else. However, it can not be only because you have chosen so by your own ability to choose. Subjectively (that is, in herself), Mary the power to choose evil, but in God's knowledge, which sees all (including what choice she would choose, not before she chose it, because He is outside of time, but rather apart from her choosing it), it can not be that she would choose evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinAH Posted November 15, 2007 Share Posted November 15, 2007 Could have if she wanted to, but full of grace means that there is no room left for sin so obviously she didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted November 15, 2007 Share Posted November 15, 2007 Good to see this topic bumped up to the top again! Re-read it all Colin, its a good one! This is one of my all time favorite threads... it should be framed or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted November 15, 2007 Share Posted November 15, 2007 Camster was annoyingly brilliant in this thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted November 15, 2007 Share Posted November 15, 2007 I'm hoping the Camster would come back... especially today... I want him to check out the sacred music thread(s)... pst hot stuff, check out Transmudane, will ya buddy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 according to these song lyrics, mary did indeed sin. [quote](hail mary) No virgin me, for I have sinned I sold my soul, for sex and gin Go call a priest, all meek and mild And tell him mary, is no longer a child Its raining stones, its raining bile From the luxury, of your denial So I dont deny, I dont make do Ill press alarms, place bets on truth[/quote] [url="http://www.actionext.com/names_c/chumbawamba_lyrics/mary_mary.html"]http://www.actionext.com/names_c/chumbawam.../mary_mary.html[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PapaHilarious Posted November 16, 2007 Share Posted November 16, 2007 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1420464' date='Nov 16 2007, 12:37 PM']according to these song lyrics, mary did indeed sin. [url="http://www.actionext.com/names_c/chumbawamba_lyrics/mary_mary.html"]http://www.actionext.com/names_c/chumbawam.../mary_mary.html[/url][/quote] i agree. these additional [i]Chumbawamba[/i] lyrics verify the fact that Mary was a sinful creature... [size=3][quote]I get knocked, down but I get up again You're never gonna keep me down I get knocked, down but I get up again You're never gonna keep me down I get knocked, down but I get up again You're never gonna keep me down I get knocked, down but I get up again You're never gonna keep me down[/quote][/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 [quote name='PapaHilarious' post='1420466' date='Nov 16 2007, 03:43 PM'][/quote] [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=74753&hl="]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...c=74753&hl=[/url] lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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