Brother Adam Posted November 16, 2005 Share Posted November 16, 2005 [quote name='Rick777' date='Nov 14 2005, 08:57 PM']Mary is sinless, she was immaculately concieved....end of story. [right][snapback]789068[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I'm afraid it really is not the end of the story, just by the fact of the debate that has gone on here. Though it is admittely less of a debate about any Mariam doctrine, and more of a debate on the use of words in English. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted November 16, 2005 Share Posted November 16, 2005 [quote name='rkwright' date='Nov 16 2005, 04:20 PM']I hate to bring this back up, I've been reading and re-reading this for the past few days, and don't queit fully understand. I get the logic that Cam lays out in the post I quoted, now how does that fit in with God choosing Mary b\c she could not sin? The quotes from Jacob S? that if there were any holier he would have picked someone else. I know I'm looking at this through time, and thats probably hurting my view point but heres what I'm seeing... On one hand we have Cam's above logic, that b\c Mary was exluded from OS, she was destined to be Mother of God. That seems to line up chronologically also, God excludes OS, Mary doesn't sin, Mary is Mother of God. Now on the other hand we have God choosing Mary b\c she is the most holy, the most worthy as the other quotes have shown. How do you reconcile the 2? I know they must meet up and are both correct but I'm not seeing it. Did God know that she would never sin, so he chose her, then gave her the grace, so that she would never sin? Or.. Did God give her the grace, b\c he knew that once the grace was in place she could not sin, but that seems to negate any real choosing, he could have chosen anyone. Help! [right][snapback]791855[/snapback][/right] [/quote] The two are reconciled in the understanding of how gratia efficax and gratia sufficens relate to Mary AND how they relate to man. There is a fundamental difference. How does God grant that grace and how is that gift realized? That is how it is realized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted November 16, 2005 Share Posted November 16, 2005 mmk... explain? so far from what I've read from you, gratia efficax transforms the will, the will becomes one with the grace so to say? but again I'm missing the timing of it all. Is it because God granted gratia efficax to Mary that she never sinned, OR is it that b\c Mary never would sin he chose her to recieve gratia efficax... forgive me If I'm just repeating the qeusion, just looking for some understanding... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted November 16, 2005 Share Posted November 16, 2005 [quote name='rkwright' date='Nov 16 2005, 05:45 PM']mmk... explain? so far from what I've read from you, gratia efficax transforms the will, the will becomes one with the grace so to say? but again I'm missing the timing of it all. Is it because God granted gratia efficax to Mary that she never sinned, OR is it that b\c Mary never would sin he chose her to recieve gratia efficax... forgive me If I'm just repeating the qeusion, just looking for some understanding... [right][snapback]791942[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I don't think that it will be profitable to restate my position. My perspective on this is clearly stated in the body of the thread. I would suggest that you look there. The answer is in there. I am not all that interested in re-hashing this all over again. Again, the answer lies in the relationship of gratia efficax and gratia sufficens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted November 16, 2005 Share Posted November 16, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Nov 16 2005, 05:47 PM']I don't think that it will be profitable to restate my position. My perspective on this is clearly stated in the body of the thread. I would suggest that you look there. The answer is in there. I am not all that interested in re-hashing this all over again. Again, the answer lies in the relationship of gratia efficax and gratia sufficens. [right][snapback]791946[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I have been waiting for this thread to quietly slip to the bottom of the pile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted November 16, 2005 Share Posted November 16, 2005 ahh again I must persist! I am really looking for an understanding of the immaculate conception, as you seem to have it Cam. Maybe this should be under a new topic, I'm not asking about the 'could Mary have sinned' issue that took up 90% of this thread. Cam I re-read what you wrote on gratia efficax vs gratia sufficens, and I understand how gratia efficax transforms the will. No doubt no question there. I think my question could be re-stated, Why did God choose Mary to grant gratia efficax too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 [quote name='rkwright' date='Nov 16 2005, 05:58 PM']ahh again I must persist! I am really looking for an understanding of the immaculate conception, as you seem to have it Cam. Maybe this should be under a new topic, I'm not asking about the 'could Mary have sinned' issue that took up 90% of this thread. Cam I re-read what you wrote on gratia efficax vs gratia sufficens, and I understand how gratia efficax transforms the will. No doubt no question there. I think my question could be re-stated, Why did God choose Mary to grant gratia efficax too? [right][snapback]791960[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Because she said YES, resoundingly. Look to Luke 1:46-55; 1:68-79; and 2:29-32. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 huh... I guess it was so obvious all along, maybe I got caught up in the details too much and missed the easy answer... I think I read into the Jacob S quote too much and messed up the timing in it. Thanks a ton though for stickin with me, I know it must seem boring and feel like you're talking to wall, but its all clear now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scardella Posted November 17, 2005 Author Share Posted November 17, 2005 Btw, I have been keeping up w/ the thread... It does seem like a dead topic, too. (Of course, this'll bump it back up...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 It is a dead topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 The Blessed Virgin Mary never sinned. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 Right, but the point of this thread was to ask if she was human in that she could have made the choice to sin. We know she didn't, but can you answer the other one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 quite frankly, it doesnt matter if she could have, because she didnt. End of Story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 [quote name='StThomasMore' date='Feb 15 2006, 01:07 AM']quite frankly, it doesnt matter if she could have, because she didnt. End of Story. [right][snapback]887931[/snapback][/right] [/quote] From a theological point of view it does though. It speaks directly to the dogmatic formulation of the Imaculate Conception. Take the time to read what I have posted. Also look to the nuance. It took Paphnutius about 6 pages or so to understand just what is going on. In other words, the answer is not "a one-liner" and it is not a simple as you'd think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Feb 14 2006, 09:06 PM']Right, but the point of this thread was to ask if she was human in that she could have made the choice to sin. We know she didn't, but can you answer the other one? [right][snapback]887677[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I guess it kinda matters on whether or not you're arguing with someone whose conception is that she is treated as a goddess in Catholicism. The important part to remember is that she was human and in that respect had the capacity to sin, for without that capacity, we cannot truly chose to love God (Augustine on the free will). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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