toledo_jesus Posted October 26, 2005 Share Posted October 26, 2005 Would this man have changed if he had not received a sentence of death? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- US judge sets December date to execute Nobel Peace Prize nominee Tue Oct 25, 4:11 AM ET LOS ANGELES (AFP) - A US judge signed a death warrant for a former street gangster and convicted killer who went on to be nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts in tackling youth violence. Los Angeles Superior Court Judge William Pounders set a December 13 date for the execution of Stanley "Tookie" Williams, noting that his appeal against his death sentence had been rejected by the US Supreme Court on October 11. "I am signing the warrant of execution," the judge said as several dozen opponents of the death penalty looked on in the crowded courtroom. Williams, who co-founded Los Angeles' deadly Crips gang, was convicted in 1981 for the murders of four people and has been incarcerated in a small cell on the death row of San Francisco's San Quentin prison since then. But since receiving his death sentence, Williams, 51, has renounced his gang past, penned children's books, been the subject of a television movie starring Jamie Foxx and been nominated for the world's top peace prize. "The Stanley Williams case is about a man who has done what I think is the most important thing a man can do in this country, and that is reach out to the youth of this country with books, with tapes ...," Williams lawyer, Peter Fleming, said outside the courtroom. Williams' legal team will appeal to movie star California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger on November 8 for clemency and to reduce the prisoner's sentence from death to life in prison without the possibility of parole. The Supreme Court's decision earlier this month cleared the way for Williams' execution by lethal injection -- unless Schwarzenegger intervenes. But no condemned murderer has been granted clemency in California since 1967. Outside the courthouse, demonstrators held up signs proclaiming "Executions Teach Vengeance and Violence", "Abolish the Death Penalty" and "Stop the Execution of Stanley Tookie Williams -- Keeping Him Alive Saves Lives." A number of Williams' supporters chanted, "Let Tookie live!" Williams was 16 when he and a high school friend -- Raymond Washington, who was later killed -- began the Crips street gang in South Los Angeles in 1971. Known as "Big Took" to fellow Crips, Williams helped build the gang into a nationwide criminal enterprise that continues to spawn street violence more than 30 years later. He was convicted and sentenced to death for committing four 1979 murders, but he has consistently maintained his innocence. The first victim in the killings, which took place during two separate robberies two weeks apart, was a 23-year-old convenience store worker. A witnessed who received immunity from prosecution testified at trial that he, Williams and two other men took 120 dollars from the store's cash register before Williams shot the young man execution-style and mocked the gurgling sounds the victim made as he lay dying. Williams was also found guilty of the shotgun murders of a family of three people in a Los Angeles motel. Williams, who presented an alibi for his whereabouts at the time of the killings, argued in his appeal that Los Angeles County prosecutors had engaged in racial discrimination by seeking to keep black people off his trial jury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest T-Bone Posted October 26, 2005 Share Posted October 26, 2005 He is a murderer, but he no longer seems a danger to either the public at large, nor his jail community. The death penalty in this case would be grossly unjust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avemaria40 Posted October 26, 2005 Share Posted October 26, 2005 I agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor Posted October 26, 2005 Share Posted October 26, 2005 So if he hadn't gotten a nobel peace prize we should fry him? Do I got that right? ~Victor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crusader1234 Posted October 26, 2005 Share Posted October 26, 2005 The death penalty is only justifiable if the person isn't able to be contained safely. This is a guy who's been living a life worthy of a nobel peace prize nomination since 1981. And I'm pretty sure its tricky to get nominated for a peace prize while in jail - heck, most of us free people can't pull it off. There is absolutely no way of justifying this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toledo_jesus Posted October 26, 2005 Author Share Posted October 26, 2005 the essential question here remains unanswered. Would he have converted if he had not been sentenced to death? Would his good life have naturally come about without his fear of his sentence? It's not "is the death penalty wrong," it's "is his death penalty what inspired him to do good?" to be clear, he was only nominated for the peace prize. He didn't win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dspen2005 Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 we must, unless given clear evidence to the contrary, grant to individuals who make conversions the benefit of the doubt. we have several instances where people have been converted because of intense, major occurrences in one's life -- near-death experiences is one.... Examples where conversion has taken place after having had a serious experience: St Paul, the Good Thief, the Roman Guard at the crufixion, St Augustine.... and more contemporary figures, as well.... the question you ask is pure speculation in it's strictest sense... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest T-Bone Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 [quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Oct 26 2005, 05:38 PM']the essential question here remains unanswered. Would he have converted if he had not been sentenced to death? Would his good life have naturally come about without his fear of his sentence? It's not "is the death penalty wrong," it's "is his death penalty what inspired him to do good?" [b]to be clear, he was only nominated for the peace prize. He didn't win[/b]. [right][snapback]771366[/snapback][/right] [/quote] It doesn't even matter that he was nominated. He has been living a life that is worthy of nomination. He is not a danger to either the public at large, nor his jail community. I cautiously support the death penalty in most cases. This is one case where I consider it unjust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 I would not agree with a death sentence in this case. The man is living a constructive life, and is a minimal danger at best. However, I would not set him free. He must pay for his crimes and thus life in prison would seem just. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 I believe in the death penalty, because if you take a life you owe a life. That is justice. That must always be tempered with mercy and good common sense. Let the guy out of jail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Oct 27 2005, 08:50 AM']I believe in the death penalty, because if you take a life you owe a life. That is justice. [right][snapback]771729[/snapback][/right] [/quote] There was a really well-written, nuanced [url="http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0508/articles/bottum.html"]article on the death penalty in First Things[/url] a couple of months ago ... worth reading even if you don't agree with the author's conclusions, which I'm guessing you probably won't. However, relevant to this particular statement, he says: [quote]It is real, unbearably real, in other words, but also a story, with a purpose in the way the story goes. And taken that way, the execution of Michael Ross works more or less as we demand from such stories. It has a completeness, a satisfaction, a narrative arc. It gives the feeling of rightness and a sort of balance restored to a universe gone wrong with the taking of innocent life. It aims, as satisfying stories must, at what we used to call poetic justice: the killer killed, the blood-debt repaid with blood, death satisfied with death. Unfortunately, it is also, in its essence, a pagan story, and Jesus—well, yes, Jesus turned all our stories inside out. Especially the old, old ones about blood and blood’s repayment.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toledo_jesus Posted October 27, 2005 Author Share Posted October 27, 2005 But isn't it true that in the past death sentences were looked at as an excellent impetus for a person to convert? Could it be that this holds true today? Realizing that the question is speculation, could it just be possible that without his sentence of death he would not have lived his life such as he has? If near-death experiences are enough to convert someone, wouldn't certain-impending-death situations be even more effective? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 [quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Oct 27 2005, 01:42 PM']But isn't it true that in the past death sentences were looked at as an excellent impetus for a person to convert? Could it be that this holds true today? Realizing that the question is speculation, could it just be possible that without his sentence of death he would not have lived his life such as he has? If near-death experiences are enough to convert someone, wouldn't certain-impending-death situations be even more effective? [right][snapback]772079[/snapback][/right] [/quote] One of my friends is a deputy prosecuting attorney and this is his argument. My answer to him has been that we're all under a certain death sentence. We all know that we're going to die; some of us are just a little more clued in as to the day and time. I don't think it's realistic for us to claim that we're executing people in order to convert them. We're doing it out of a sense of retributive justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toledo_jesus Posted October 27, 2005 Author Share Posted October 27, 2005 [quote name='Sojourner' date='Oct 27 2005, 03:01 PM']One of my friends is a deputy prosecuting attorney and this is his argument. My answer to him has been that we're all under a certain death sentence. We all know that we're going to die; some of us are just a little more clued in as to the day and time. I don't think it's realistic for us to claim that we're executing people in order to convert them. We're doing it out of a sense of retributive justice. [right][snapback]772107[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Do you think people really have a sense of the immediacy of death? I know that for myself death seemed a far off event, and I didn't plan for what would happen after. it didn't seem important while I was living. The Christian perspective is a bit different...do you suppose that in that sense a death sentence could be a wake-up call to someone? I'm really exploring this issue for the first time, so forgive my hairsplitting... Not too many have chimed in supporting the death penalty...I'd like to hear more from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 [quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Oct 27 2005, 03:01 PM']Do you think people really have a sense of the immediacy of death? I know that for myself death seemed a far off event, and I didn't plan for what would happen after. it didn't seem important while I was living. The Christian perspective is a bit different...do you suppose that in that sense a death sentence could be a wake-up call to someone? [right][snapback]772160[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Are you writing from the beyond? "It didn't seem important while I was living" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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