Results Of A Sex Survey

[hopeful1]

What if God plans for one of the current Phatmass members to be Pope someday and he is using this "gripe and moan" session to plant a seed in his heart and mind so that when he does become Pope he will outlaw mixed marriages between virgins and non-virgins?

ok, i agreed with you up till this point. You mean well, but to me this sounds a little,

how do we say...extreme. Think about it a minute. does that mean that someone that was raped can't get married. and look at the muslim culture in the middle east.. a woman that has lost her virginity before marriage is considered to have no value and is even encouraged by her family to commit suicide, even if she was raped. what about people that pull a mary magdalene? a huge part of being a christian has do with forgiveness, and outlawing "mixed marriages" or that these people are worthless would seem antithetical to the whole message. I'm obvious not married, so i can't speak from personal experience, but i'm pretty sure forgiveness plays a big part in marriage too, and lord knows we're going to end up doing a lot of it! Let's not forget we are all sinners here.

sorry about the rant, but thats just my 2 cents

[God Conquers]

I agree here, it would be crazy to make that kind of law. Chastity is like other sins, we all sin against it, we can't help it, only God can, with our compliance.

In the middle east they actually murder women who have been raped. In Iraq right now the new fad is kidnapping daughters and ransoming them. The daughters are sometimes raped as revenge on the family, because they become "useless" according to their law. In police stations they have ObGyn tables to cut down on case time. If a girl has been raped they don't even bother, just call the father. sick.

[jmjtina]

Marrying someone who isn't a virgin or dating one doesn't mean you've lowered your standards. They have highered thiers. The perfect example is Jason Evert and Crystalina Padilla Evert. Her story is one of God's mercy and love. She didn't despair but chose to trust in God's love and mercy. Chastity has to do with today, not the past. She trusted completely in God and prayed for her future husband and her husband was a virgin and an amesome apologist. God had them set aside for each other from the get-go.

[hyperdulia again]

i have an idea why doesn't someone build a prison and lock all of us un-virtuous, horrid little unmarried non-virgins up, then no one has to worry about gettin' damaged goods.

[BLAZEr]

Maybe you can just wear a sign . . . let me think, maybe a Scarlett A pinned to your chest?? That would be recognizable . . . .

[hyperdulia again]

i think i shall.

[Frankcdnj]

The reason why a virgin is sought after by men as well as women is because of three reasons and maybe more. These reasons are not mine but from other sources.

First, the spouse will not compare his/her prior partners to their current one exception being relations were with his/her current spouse. Also, there will be know worry of prior bad sexual experiences. Plus, in time many women who have had premarital sex (with their spouse) feel guilty/resentment and blame the man for not waiting. This leads them to become frigid. You notice I did not say "ALL" women.

Second, it shows the person does not have the moral discipline/restraint to wait for the right time. And the spouse or spouses who have had premarital sex should have known this: Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."

Third, statistics have shown the spouse or spouses who has had premarital sex, prior or with there current spouse is more likely to have sex outside of the marriage bond.

And again, I am not judging anyone nor should you judge me for listing well known facts based on the church and the medical community.

Frank

Edited December 7, 2003 by Frankcdnj

[Norseman82]

Now that I've gotten people's attention.......

Some of you are approaching this from the "forgive the sinner" side. I'm approaching it from the "what message does a virgin rejecting a virgin for a non-virgin send" side. When a virgin rejects a fellow virgin for a non-virgin, a signal is sent out that says, "sorry, but I value a non-virgin more than a virgin". And there is the matter of the jilted virgin - is that any way to reward virtue? Also, there may be someone who is either new to the faith, or experiencing a weak moment, and could be vulnerable (see 1 Cor. 8:7-13) to temptation and might think to himself/herself "Hey, it pays more to be a fornicator than a virgin". That is, in a sense, a form of scandal.

Take a lesson from the business world. How would you like it if you worked hard and did your job and there was a co-worker who goofed off all the time and got no work done - and you often had to pick up the slack - and you lost the promotion to the person who goofed off? I bet you'd be upset, too.

And I wasn't suggesting that non-virgins couldn't get married, just that they should voluntarily recuse themselves from virgins in the spirit of "deferring out of reverence to Christ" (Ephesians 5:21). (Besides, there is an old rule of courtesy that states that it is impolite to go back for seconds before everone has had their first helping).

Edited December 8, 2003 by Norseman82

[Frankcdnj]

Well stated. As they tell us in the homily at mass, taking the right road is more difficult because you must deal with the struggle to resist temptation. Face it, taking the sinful way is much easier. There are many many women I could of had relations with in my life but I decided not to. I would rather wait for the woman that would say "No way" when I asked how she thought about premarital relations. And you know I have decided to continue to wait for her.

And being blunt but not wanting to offend anyone; Sex outside of marriage is not love it is "lust." That is the stand for all but a handful of priests and all theologians.

Oh, and some priests have the belief that premarital sex during an engagement is less of a sin than just outright fornication. Well, the priests I know find that notion offensive and just ludicrous. Fornication is fornication regardless of the circumstances. As one priest said, if two people have committed the same sin they are both judged the same by God. One does not get special consideration more than the other.

A further explanation of fornication by a priest:

Sexual sin is committed with the body, and its gratification is from within the physical body. Other sins, like stealing, are outside the body (the object stolen is outside the body). Hatred or resentment starts from within the person, but is directed to someone outside that person. So it is with all other sins, even though they originate within the evil mind (not body), as Jesus reminds us in Luke 6:45: "The good person out of the good treasure of the heart produces good, and the evil person out of evil treasure produces evil; for it is out of the abundance of the heart that the mouth speaks."

[Frankcdnj]

I have just gotten sex stats from a friend who works for the fed gov't (USAID). The numbers are shocking maybe even bizarre. He deals only with un-natural sex acts/sodomy because it is a more risky behavior. Oh and one of the reasons these acts are practiced is to retain "virginity" as given by those surveyed.

And these are the numbers used by the Federal Gov't.

The hopes of a virgin bride has just about hit bottom. Is she is out there, the question I ask myself is where?

This has to be the "end times" since the faith of most on earth has vanished.

[Jake Huether]

I'm in the percent not mentioned that waited till I was married!

But now that I'm married, I'm taken... So sorry girls.

Anyway, I bring this up not so much as a teeze (hahahah), but to point out that men like that doooo exist.

God will provide. Amen.

[traichuoi]

Frank and Norseman,

I have found some of your comments to be self-righteous liken to that of the Scribes and the Pharisees. Self-righteousness breeds contempt. Those people who have sinned and repented are of no less value than virgins (who sin on their own part). You are talking about the dignity of human persons...no one is less valuable in the eyes of God. Of course virginity is a great virtue, but no one chooses another person based on whether or not they are a virgin. you choose another person based on what God's will is for your relationship. What you have stated about choosing virgins over non-virgins as being the more prudent choice is self-righteousness in true form. That is your own moral belief and not that of true Morally right beliefs...hence, i use the word "self-righteousness."

Rather, Jesus was against self-righteousness in all its forms: political, religious, personal, racial or cultural. Self-righteous persons have no need of a savior; they are self-sufficient. Self-righteous persons are spiritually blind, whether they are Roman governors or members of the Pharisee party, rocket scientists or global traders, theologians or bishops. If we are righteous on our own, Jesus was a fool to go to his death on the cross for our salvation, and we are geniuses for calling him Lord (I Cor. 15: 3-19). But Jesus knows us and our sinfulness, even when we try to hide it from ourselves. Jesus was against self-righteousness, wherever he found it. Jesus blessed the humble, those who know they’re not self-sufficient, wherever he met them.

Francis Cardinal George, OMI

Archbishop of Chicago

By disregarding non-Virgins who have repented and are living chaste lives you are disregarding Christ's forgiveness for that person...in that, you created your own righteousness. non-virgins who have repented recognize "they're not self-sufficient." If Jesus has compassion on the sexual sinners...how can you deny them compassion?

Edited December 8, 2003 by traichuoi

[Norseman82]

Frank and Norseman,

I have found some of your comments to be self-righteous liken to that of the Scribes and the Pharisees.  Self-righteousness breeds contempt.  Those people who have sinned and repented are of no less value than virgins (who sin on their own part).  You are talking about the dignity of human persons...no one is less valuable in the eyes of God.  Of course virginity is a great virtue, but no one chooses another person based on whether or not they are a virgin.  you choose another person based on what God's will is for your relationship.  What you have stated about choosing virgins over non-virgins as being the more prudent choice is self-righteousness in true form.  That is your own moral belief and not that of true Morally right beliefs...hence, i use the word "self-righteousness."

By disregarding non-Virgins who have repented and are living chaste lives you are disregarding Christ's forgiveness for that person...in that, you created your own righteousness.  non-virgins who have repented recognize "they're not self-sufficient."  If Jesus has compassion on the sexual sinners...how can you deny them compassion?

Just because I forgive someone doesn't mean they are compatible.

Soemone who is not a virgin simply is not compatible. Period.

[Frankcdnj]

Traichuoi,

First you have not read my last post on the other thread where I agreed with a woman having up to 2 partners may be ok.

But you can not discount this:

Statistics have shown the spouse or spouses who has had premarital sex, prior or with there current spouse is more likely to have sex outside of the marriage bond.

This is a fact from our church and the scientific community. If I have not had relations by resisting temptation why should I have to marry a woman who has shown she can not? Priests have told me it would not be a wise idea.

I realize we are all sinners and those without sin can cast the first stone.

Although, fornication is the only sin that sins against one's body. So, I will have to seriously think about it. I am 40% in favor of a secondary virgin, I have to be 51% to make it happen.

[traichuoi]

Just because I forgive someone doesn't mean they are compatible.

Soemone who is not a virgin simply is not compatible.  Period.

i believer your words were not about compatibility but:

'm approaching it from the "what message does a virgin rejecting a virgin for a non-virgin send" side.

that doesn't sound like discernment of compatibility...to make the assertion that mixed marriages shouldn't exist is judgemental...putting judgement on the repentant sinner.