Should Homosexual Marriage Be Banned?

[jmjtina]

I'm voting against it here in Texas. and so is my whole parish and family.

Texas is pretty conservative, so I'm not too worried, but we are praying nonetheless.

[Jaime]

[quote name='StatingTheObvious' date='Nov 6 2005, 10:11 PM']I think hot stuff needs to 'tag' Cam and get out of the ring if he can crawl to the ropes. 
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Man I had hoped you had me on the ignore list. *Sigh* Wishful thinking I guess.



Fine Jas, let's go with Canon law for a while (and btw, its about time someone brought canon law into the discussion)

Does Civil law recognize any of these canons? No.

What about two divorced Catholics that remarry civilly?
What about two unbaptised people marrying?


And what part of the Canon law that you've quoted deny the sacramentality of marriage?

[homeschoolmom]

[qfnol31]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Nov 6 2005, 10:39 PM']Man I had hoped you had me on the ignore list.  *Sigh* Wishful thinking I guess. 
Fine Jas, let's go with Canon law for a while (and btw, its about time someone brought canon law into the discussion) 

Does Civil law recognize any of these canons?  No. 

What about two divorced Catholics that remarry civilly?
What about two unbaptised people marrying?
And what part of the Canon law that you've quoted deny the sacramentality of marriage?
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Do they deny the natural or Sacramental marriage aspect?

[jmjtina]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Nov 6 2005, 09:42 PM']
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that's EXACTLY what I was thinking!!!!!!!!!!!!

great minds think alike!

okay back to your regularly scheduled program.

[jasJis]

Canon Law, the Catechism, and Church Teaching DO RECOGNIZE Civil/Natural Law elements of Marriage. Re-read the excerpts from the Catechism and Canon Law, expecially what I highlighted. There is no need to be obtuse.

For example, The 'Pauline privilege' recognizes Civil/Natural marriage, but it is dissolved and superceded when it is validated by Christians after they convert. That is the simplest and clearest example of Civil/Natural marriage being recognized, but that covenant and bond would be superceded by a Sacramental Marriage between two Christians or if one becomes a Christian. That is addressed specifically by Canon Law. Also, the Natural effects of marriage are contrasted with the ADDTIONAL Effects of a Grace-filled (Sacramental) Christian marriage.

Non-Christians do marry. Their marriage covenant recieves limited grace because God created the institute of marriage. Christ chose to elevate Marriage to a Sacrament and provide additional graces to Christians. That did not dissolve all other marriages, it elevated Christian marriage.

How then, can you say that atheists cannot be married? I never denied the Sacramental nature of marriage. The point I make, and you supposedly deny, is the natural law and civil elements of marriage that the Catechism, Canon Law, and St. Paul acknowledge. Based on this, I'll answer your questions.

Two divorced Catholics can marry civilly, and if not done properly within the Church, would not be married Sacramentally and would probably be in a state of grave sin.

Two unbaptised people would be two 'unapprised' people marrying and would have a marriage covenant and would be expected to be faithful, monogamous, and have a life time commitment. Even those outside the Earthly Church are provided the Grace through Natural Law to recoginize good. The Pauline privilege recognizes this bond, but allows it to be dissolved if one becomes a Christian and seeks a Christian life and marriage. That's because a Christian marriage supercedes a natural marriage.

And don't try to bait me with your disingenuous question about what part of Canon Law denies Sacramentality of marriage. I never claimed that, never insinuated that, and I am offended you would infer that I had. Canon Law does acknowledge elements of marriage that are not sacramental is what I said.

Pay attention to the next Catholic Marriage you attend. You will hear the Priest say, "By the power of the Catholic Church and the authority granted by the State of (fill in the blank), I now pronounce you man and wife." That right there recognizes the dual elements of Marriage, which is the point being made. You, on the other hand, have repeatedly claimed that Marriage is ONLY SACRAMENTAL, and no other Authority has any jurisdiction over marriage other than the Church. That is a ludicrous position, and is untenable based on reasonable evaluation of the facts.

[Sinner]

TEXANS ...... it is your duty to vote on this morally important issue.

Bump.

Do it.

[qfnol31]

I dunno if it's a moral necessity...it's not actually an issue for us.

It would be implying powers in the government that aren't there in the first place...(Federalist Papers)

[jasJis]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Nov 8 2005, 03:20 AM']I dunno if it's a moral necessity...it's not actually an issue for us. 

It would be implying powers in the government that aren't there in the first place...(Federalist Papers)
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[/quote]WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! Catholics should vote as a moral necessity. It is an issue for us. Catholics in America have been graced with the freedom, right, and RESPONSIBILITY to participate in our Government. Since we have the freedom to, the right to, and the responsibility to participate, we are morally obligated to vote, voice our opinion, etc.

[qfnol31]

LoL, I think you misunderstood me.

I mean for Texans it's not an issue right now whether or not gay marriage is banned by the state Constitution. It's not something that needs to be banned because there's nothing that allows it.

[Guest cathy]

This is all incredible.
I don't really know where to begin. I have read through this thread with increasing anxiety.
The sanctity of marriage has been reduced to near nothingness over the years. What about Marriages lasting for only days? Vegas chapels? people who aren't in love getting married due to pregnancy. People who are married who beat their spouses. Who create broken homes and broken souls. Who of you can say that being in an abusive home with a married man and wife is better than a loving and stable home with two people of the same sex in a union?
This idea of homosexuality as some sort of a plague is archaic and inane. How many of you know a gay couple? A gay person? Why can't you respect the fact that there is REAL LOVE in these relationships? Love that has been fought for over the years. It isn't the same as someone "shacking up with a friend"- this is commitment. Imagine living a monogamous lifetime with your soulmate, but not being able to have the same respect from fellow citizens or the same rights during your course of life- is that fair? Marriage is about a union with god's love- not about society's fear of change and difference.
And all of you claiming that breeding is one of the soul purposes of marriage- there is no shortage of children. Since so many of you are pro-life, what do you plan on doing with all the children who are born unwanted? Are you going to adopt them? No, you can't. You can't adopt all of them. So don't worry about our country not surviving in the face of gay marriage in light of procreation, that’s ridiculous, the world is overpopulated as is.
There was a time in history that Marriage between African-Americans and white Americans was forbidden. That law has come down, so why put up new ones with equally ridiculous pretexts?
Gay couples deserve the rights of straight couples, our county is based on freedom and justice- our founders came here to escape religious persecution- so what’s this hatred? God doesn't condone hatred or facetiousness, so why do you?

im not trying to spark a riot. i'm not trying to cut others down, but i am genuinely confused, and would like earnest answers, as humans. i'm trying to figure things out.

peace.

[Socrates]

[quote name='cathy' date='Nov 8 2005, 06:23 PM']This is all incredible.
I don't really know where to begin. I have read through this thread with increasing anxiety.
The sanctity of marriage has been reduced to near nothingness over the years. What about Marriages lasting for only days? Vegas chapels? people who aren't in love getting married due to pregnancy. People who are married who beat their spouses. Who create broken homes and broken souls. Who of you can say that being in an abusive home with a married man and wife is better than a loving and stable home with two people of the same sex in a union?
This idea of homosexuality as some sort of a plague is archaic and inane. How many of you know a gay couple? A gay person? Why can't you respect the fact that there is REAL LOVE in these relationships? Love that has been fought for over the years. It isn't the same as someone "shacking up with a friend"- this is commitment. Imagine living a monogamous lifetime with your soulmate, but not being able to have the same respect from fellow citizens or the same rights during your course of life- is that fair? Marriage is about a union with god's love- not about society's fear of change and difference.
And all of you claiming that breeding is one of the soul purposes of marriage- there is no shortage of children. Since so many of you are pro-life, what do you plan on doing with all the children who are born unwanted? Are you going to adopt them? No, you can't. You can't adopt all of them. So don't worry about our country not surviving in the face of gay marriage in light of procreation, that’s ridiculous, the world is overpopulated as is.
There was a time in history that Marriage between African-Americans and white Americans was forbidden. That law has come down, so why put up new ones with equally ridiculous pretexts?
Gay couples deserve the rights of straight couples, our county is based on freedom and justice- our founders came here to escape religious persecution- so what’s this hatred? God doesn't condone hatred or facetiousness, so why do you?

im not trying to spark a riot. i'm not trying to cut others down, but i am genuinely confused, and would like earnest answers, as humans. i'm trying to figure things out.

peace.
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Cathy, if you are truly interested in knowing why homosexuality is wrong, we suggest you run a search on the topic here, as this topic has been debated and discussed numberous times in the past. I suggest you read some of these debates for a more in-depth understanding.

We agree on the sanctity of marriage being destroyed and are against these things too. Homosexual "marriage" is not the only or the first attack on the sanctity of marriage. The fact that there are bad "heterosexual" marriages does not make homosexuality good.

Marriage at its heart is about the procreation and raising of children - it is the basis of family, which is the human institution at the heart of any society.
Homosexual activity does not and cannot create life. It can breed only death and disease. Two people of the same sex sodomizing one another cannot and never will make a marriage or a family.

Your point about "love" being all that makes a marriage is pure silliness. I truly love my mother - this does not mean I should be allowed to marry her!

And your inane remarks about "overpopulation" are a non-sequiter. There are plenty of couples who could adopt children. What this has to do with "gay marriage" is beyond me - sounds like just another pointless rant.

[Socrates]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Nov 8 2005, 10:34 AM']LoL, I think you misunderstood me. 

I mean for Texans it's not an issue right now whether or not gay marriage is banned by the state Constitution.  It's not something that needs to be banned because there's nothing that allows it.
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This is basically a preventative measure so "gays" will not start claiming they have the right to "marry" in Texas. The referendum was brought on because homosexuals are pushing for this.
I say Texans should all vote to ban gay marriage in order to promote the sanctity of marriage. It will prevent the further desecration of marriage and the family in this regard - I honestly do not see how this will increase the power of the state over marriage or anything. The state already recognizes civil marriages, and Christians refusing to vote for a "gay marriage" ban will do absolutely nothing to change that.

This logic reminds me of those who refuse to vote for ANY candidate, because they beleive "democracy is evil."

[jasJis]

[quote name='cathy' date='Nov 8 2005, 06:23 PM']This is all incredible.
I don't really know where to begin. I have read through this thread with increasing anxiety.
The sanctity of marriage has been reduced to near nothingness over the years. What about Marriages lasting for only days? Vegas chapels? people who aren't in love getting married due to pregnancy. People who are married who beat their spouses. Who create broken homes and broken souls. [/quote]Yes, marriage has been minimalized. Why add to the minimalization? The examples you point out are marriages for selfish reasons. REAL marriage is to create love.

[quote]Who of you can say that being in an abusive home with a married man and wife is better than a loving and stable home with two people of the same sex in a union? [/quote]Well, since a same sex couple can't have children, this is a moot point.
[quote]This idea of homosexuality as some sort of a plague is archaic and inane. How many of you know a gay couple? A gay person? Why can't you respect the fact that there is REAL LOVE in these relationships? Love that has been fought for over the years. It isn't the same as someone "shacking up with a friend"- this is commitment. Imagine living a monogamous lifetime with your soulmate, but not being able to have the same respect from fellow citizens or the same rights during your course of life- is that fair? Marriage is about a union with god's love- not about society's fear of change and difference. [/quote]God created marriage as a way for two people (the example given is a man and woman) to become one and create life. I have lot's of friends and family that are gay. I love them, but I don't agree with them. I also have friends and family that have not been faithful. I love them too, and don't agree with them. What's your point?
[quote]  And all of you claiming that breeding is one of the soul purposes of marriage- there is no shortage of children. Since so many of you are pro-life, what do you plan on doing with all the children who are born unwanted? Are you going to adopt them? No, you can't. You can't adopt all of them. So don't worry about our country not surviving in the face of gay marriage in light of procreation, that’s ridiculous, the world is overpopulated as is. [/quote]The world isn't overpopulated, it is overly selfish. Selfishness creates children that aren't loved. Selfishness creates unwanted children. That selfishness is sex with others for the sole purpose of self gratification, not becoming one and being open to children. That is the problem with homosexual sex. By it's very nature, it's selfish and limited. Okaying same sex marriage is putting another nail in the coffin for the demise of marriage and fosters the belief that selfish sex is okay. That's the lie that creates unwanted children.
[quote]There was a time in history that Marriage between African-Americans and white Americans was forbidden. That law has come down, so why put up new ones with equally ridiculous pretexts?[/quote]By that logic, why have laws that are abitrary about age? Why can't a 35 year old marry a 13 year old? Why can't a woman marry her german shepard? Why can't a woman marry 4 other women?
[quote]Gay couples deserve the rights of straight couples, our county is based on freedom and justice- our founders came here to escape religious persecution- so what’s this hatred? God doesn't condone hatred or facetiousness, so why do you?[/quote]God does condone hate. God condones hatred for what destroys the innocent.
[quote]im not trying to spark a riot. i'm not trying to cut others down, but i am genuinely confused, and would like earnest answers, as humans. i'm trying to figure things out.

peace.
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You got your answers. Are you less confused?

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Nov 8 2005, 07:51 PM']This is basically a preventative measure so "gays" will not start claiming they have the right to "marry" in Texas.  The referendum was brought on because homosexuals are pushing for this.
I say Texans should all vote to ban gay marriage in order to promote the sanctity of marriage.  It will prevent the further desecration of marriage and the family in this regard - I honestly do not see how this will increase the power of the state over marriage or anything.  The state already recognizes civil marriages, and Christians refusing to vote for a "gay marriage" ban will do absolutely nothing to change that.

This logic reminds me of those who refuse to vote for ANY candidate, because they beleive "democracy is evil."
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I think there's a law against it.