Jaime Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 Yes I'm saying that athiests and non believers have no right to marry. I have not been vague in this position yet. And marriages should only be offered by religious communities. I haven't avoided the issue at all. And my arguments about constitionality was more to the point of "Get the government out of all sacramental practices" There isn't (or shouldn't be) a debate on how Catholics should vote. The Church has made its postiion clear. But the Church has also made it clear who originated the institution and who should be involved in its creation. I've tried to expand the topic to what I think it should be about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 What about natural marriage versus Sacramental Marriage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 Sacramental marriage is a dogmatic principle. If someone can explain to me how natural marriage supercedes dogma, I'll back off my position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 It doesn't supercede dogma, but it is still a part of it, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Nov 6 2005, 03:04 PM']It doesn't supercede dogma, but it is still a part of it, correct? [right][snapback]780388[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Not to my understanding. But I'm open to being corrected Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 What are the definitions for natural and Sacrament Marriage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 Sacramental marriage is an outward sign instituted by Christ to bring about grace. natural marriage is the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as a husband or wife in a legal consensual and contractual relationship that is recognized and sanctioned by and disolvable only by law. My stance is natural marriage is a misnomer. The fact that the Church has declared marriage to be a sacrament overrides any other definition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StatingTheObvious Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 (edited) Edited November 7, 2005 by StatingTheObvious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 (edited) I believe that natural marriage says it must be four things: 1) Permanent 2) Heterosexual 3) Exclusive 4) Procreative. Edited November 7, 2005 by qfnol31 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StatingTheObvious Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Nov 6 2005, 04:08 PM']Not to my understanding. But I'm open to being corrected [right][snapback]780389[/snapback][/right] [/quote]This is gonna be good... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 hot stuff, (setting aside your other opinions on marriage and the state) do you agree that Catholics should vote against "gay marriage"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Nov 6 2005, 09:36 PM']hot stuff, (setting aside your other opinions on marriage and the state) do you agree that Catholics should vote against "gay marriage"? [right][snapback]780689[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Yes That wasn't ever in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 The reason I mentioned natural marriage is because that is something that can be legistlated. It falls under natural law. Sacramental Marriage is an efficacious sign of the Covenant, the relation between Christ and His Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 (edited) [quote name='hot stuff' date='Nov 6 2005, 09:44 PM']Yes That wasn't ever in question. [right][snapback]780702[/snapback][/right] [/quote]What the cr8p? It was in question with your posts saying that the Government shouldn't be involved. Civil aspects of marriage are recognized by the Church and in Cannon law. The Church solely administers the Sacramental nature of marriage and allows the Civil Authorities the role of administering the Civil nature of marriage. Note the BOLD points in the excerpts from Canon Law: [quote]Can. 1055 ß1 The marriage covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of their whole life, and w[b]hich of its own very nature[/b] is ordered to the well-being of the spouses and to the procreation and upbringing of children, [b]has, between the baptized, been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament. [/b] ß2 Consequently, a valid marriage contract cannot exist between baptized persons without its being by that very fact a sacrament. Can. 1056 [b]The essential properties of marriage are unity and indissolubility; in Christian marriage they acquire a distinctive firmness by reason of the sacrament[/b]. Can. 1057 ß1 A marriage is brought into being by the lawfully manifested consent of persons who are legally capable. This consent cannot be supplied by any human power. ß2 Matrimonial consent is an act of will by which a man and a woman by an irrevocable covenant mutually give and accept one another for the purpose of establishing a marriage. Can. 1058 All can contract marriage who are not prohibited by law. Can. 1059 The marriage of Catholics, even if only one party is baptized, is governed not only by divine law but also by canon law, [b]without prejudice to the competence of the civil authority in respect of the merely civil effects of the marriage. [/b] Can. 1060 Marriage enjoys the favor of law. Consequently, in doubt the validity of a marriage must be upheld until the contrary is proven. Can. 1061 ß1 A valid marriage between baptized persons is said to be merely ratified, if it is not consummated; ratified and consummated, if the spouses have in a human manner engaged together in a conjugal act in itself apt for the generation of offspring. To this act marriage is by its nature ordered and by it the spouses become one flesh. Can. 1134 [b]From a valid marriage there arises between the spouses a bond which of its own nature is permanent and exclusive. Moreover, in Christian marriage the spouses are by a special sacrament [/b]strengthened and, as it were, consecrated for the duties and the dignity of their state. Can. 1141 A marriage which is ratified and consummated cannot be dissolved by any human power or by any cause other than death. Can. 1143 ß1 In virtue of the Pauline privilege, [b]a marriage entered into by two unapprised persons is dissolved in favor of the faith of the party who received baptism[/b], by the very fact that a new marriage is contracted by that same party, provided the unapprised party departs. [/quote] Edited November 7, 2005 by jasJis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StatingTheObvious Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 I think hot stuff needs to 'tag' Cam and get out of the ring if he can crawl to the ropes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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