How can deliberate venial sin NOT be mortal?

[Ziggamafu]

so the catechism says something like, "deliberate and unrepentant venial sin can lead to mortal sin"

so what i don't get is how a deliberated, conscious, and (most importantly) unrepentant (i'm guessing that just means flat out disagreement with the Church while acting) sin can be anything but mortal.

[thessalonian]

That's a good question. Here are my thoughts.
The sin itself may not be but the attitude may well be. Let's say one eats meat on Friday during lent. Is the sin eating meat. No, the sin is willful disobedience for the authorities that God has placed over you that have concern for your souls. If it is willful and deliberate it is mortal. I don't think that stealing a cookie could be a mortal sin even if willful and deliberate. However if it is willful and deliberate I think that would show that the will has been weakened previously to the point where the soul is in a very low state of grace if at all.

[phatcatholic]

here's what the CCC says:[list][b]1863 [/b]Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul's progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God's grace it is humanly reparable. "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness."134[list]While he is in the flesh, man cannot help but have at least some light sins. But do not despise these sins which we call "light": if you take them for light when you weigh them, tremble when you count them. A number of light objects makes a great mass; a number of drops fills a river; a number of grains makes a heap. What then is our hope? Above all, confession.135
[/list]
[/list]so, the question then is, "how does venial sin dispose us to commit mortal sin?" i think it is in this way: the more we sin, the more we become numb to its effects. the CCC goes on to say:[list][b]1865 [/b]Sin creates a proclivity to sin; it engenders vice by repetition of the same acts. This results in perverse inclinations which cloud conscience and corrupt the concrete judgment of good and evil. Thus sin tends to reproduce itself and reinforce itself, but it cannot destroy the moral sense at its root
[/list]so, through repeated and unrepented venial sin we become accustomed to sinning. before long, sinning in a grave manner doesn't seem as bad as we once thought it was and we become more inclined to sin in such a way. sinning venially, albeit w/ full knowledge and consent, is not mortal b/c the offense in question is not grave in nature. but, repeatedly sinning in such a way can causes us to turn towards those more serious sins.

i hope that helps

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Fides_et_Ratio]

I actually asked this of my spiritual director...

he said the difference was grave matter.

[dspen2005]

exactly what I was going to post....

[Aloysius]

yeah, grave matter. the deliberate part only satisfies one of the three criteria for mortal sin

1) grave matter
2) full knowledge that it is wrong (or culpably ignorance that it is wrong)
3) full consent of the will (or culpably diminishing your will through excessive drinking et cetera)

[Ziggamafu]

right, but it would seem that deliberating about a sin and understanding it as such, and then going ahead and happily doing it anyway with full consent would be a grave matter in itself.

...however the CCC seems to disagree, saying that it may only "little by little" LEAD to mortal sin - not that it's mortal in itself.

...which begs another question, i suppose. the CCC lists many infractions against God's Law. However, only a few (under each catagory) are specifically labeled as "grave" offenses. does that mean everything else mentioned (without explicit use of a derivitive of the word, "grave") is venial?

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='Oct 18 2005, 09:02 PM']right, but it would seem that deliberating about a sin and understanding it as such, and then going ahead and happily doing it anyway with full consent would be a grave matter in itself.

...however the CCC seems to disagree, saying that it may only "little by little" LEAD to mortal sin - not that it's mortal in itself.

...which begs another question, i suppose. the CCC lists many infractions against God's Law. However, only a few (under each catagory) are specifically labeled as "grave" offenses. does that mean everything else mentioned (without explicit use of a derivitive of the word, "grave") is venial?
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First of all when reading the Catechism understand that it is 2000 years of wisdom and scritpural understanding. A spirit of humility is required. If one willfully and deliberately steals a cookie, can that be a mortal sin? Well if your mother specifically told you to leave the cookies alone then disobedience to a parent heaps sin upon sin. But the act of stealing the cookie itself, could never be a mortal sin. The reason is the damage that it causes to yourself and others. A few days later it will ahve little significance and will be forgotten. It is however concerning for the future of the theif that he/she is able to steal a cookie in such a callous manner. However the conscience and God's Holy Spirit will likely help to reign them in. "Where there is sin, grace abounds".

Each individual must examine his own conscience ( well formed) to determine his level of guilt. All sin needs to be forgiven. All sin is serious because it starts us down the wrong path and is to be rooted out like a festering thorn. Therefore I do think that the Catechism's purpose is to identify sin, form the conscience correctly, and then let a well formed conscience guide the individual to repentence. The purpose of the Catechism is not to list the sins in neat categories for a legaistic confession. The purpose is to form the conscience and change the heart so that the confession is from the heart and the penetant is honestly examining his/her life. Mortal vs. venial sin is a complicated issue. I simply recommend frequent and honest confession.

Blessings