Eucharistic Prayer in Silence?

[popestpiusx]

The Rosary is inherently eucharistic. It complements, rather than detracts from the Mass. The arguments thus far against it have been positivistic rather than substantial. On statement by Paul VI contradicting clear statements by other popes and a centuries old custom is certainly not going to convince me. Sorry hot stuff but Thumper's arguments just don't do it.

[Thumper]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Oct 17 2005, 11:32 PM']
I still don't see how the Rosary takes away from the Eucharist? Or one's focus for that matter? .. I would argue the Rosary draws one closer and ever deeper into the Sacred Mystery of the Eucharist...
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Fides, all the good and lovely things about the rosary are true. Just because they are affirmed, however, doesn't mean that they should be piled on top of the liturgy. The rosary can lead us into, and sustain us outside of, the liturgy; however, the liturgy is sufficient in and of itself. In fact, sufficient does not begin to cover the richness of the liturgy.

The rosary is a very particular form of prayer. It is a private devotional practice with its own set structure and way of being done.

The liturgy is also a very particular form of prayer, with its own set structure and way of being done. But here is the big difference: it is public, not private prayer. To engage in the rosary during mass is to take part in a type of prayer, a devotional, that is not appropriate to the public character of Catholic liturgy.

In public prayer we unite ourselves not only the mystery of God; we also intentionally unite ourselves to the Church, to the people who are sitting all around us.

So what do you do during times of silence? That's a really good question. Here are my thoughts. Engage in prayer that is focused on communion with Christ and with all the others who will receive or who just have just received his Body and Blood. Ask for the Holy Spirit to unite you in charity with God and his people. Such prayers are representative of an effort to engage the public nature of the liturgy. These prayers are not devotionals in and of themselves, and therefore to do not have a private character.

On a personal note, when I feel easily distracted I try to pray to the Holy Spirit before mass to keep me attentive to the liturgy. I've also found that doing such things as looking through the prayers of the Sacramentary allows me to know them better and connect with them during mass; learning about the different "sections" of the liturgy clues me in to how I am joining in prayer with the Church throughout the mass (what is the purpose of the Gathering Rite, Kyrie, etc.?); and looking at the readings ahead of time helps me to listen in new ways.

[Thumper]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Oct 17 2005, 11:57 PM']The Rosary is inherently eucharistic.  It complements, rather than detracts from the Mass.  The arguments thus far against it have been positivistic rather than substantial. On statement by Paul VI contradicting clear statements by other popes and a centuries old custom is certainly not going to convince me.  Sorry hot stuff but Thumper's arguments just don't do it.
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I will read Mediator Dei and the sections you mentioned again and more slowly--but later, as my glass slippers are showing. However, you seem to indicate that multiple other popes support you on this. Can you give me citations, please? I think I showed above that JPII was quoting Paul VI, and that he referred back to Sacrosanctum Concilium. Are there others?

Also, does the complementarity of the rosary and the liturgy necessarily mean that they should coincide? From what little I read of Mediator Dei (paragraphs around 30) I couldn't see that their coincidence was affirmed, only complementarity. In paragraph 175 Pius XII writes: "Besides, since they [devotional practices] develop a deeper spiritual life of the faithful, they prepare them to take part in sacred public functions with greater fruit, and they lessen the danger of liturgical prayers becoming an empty ritualism." I read "prepare" as something that happens prior to liturgy, not during it.

[Jaime]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Oct 17 2005, 10:57 PM']The Rosary is inherently eucharistic.  It complements, rather than detracts from the Mass.  The arguments thus far against it have been positivistic rather than substantial. On statement by Paul VI contradicting clear statements by other popes and a centuries old custom is certainly not going to convince me.  Sorry hot stuff but Thumper's arguments just don't do it.
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Except for the fact that JPII is not calling for the rosary during mass. That is a misinterpretation that Thumper has pointed out. Also as far as Mediator Dei is concerned, after careful reading, Pope Pius XII is not calling for the rosary during mass.


[quote]It is Our wish also that the faithful, as well, should take part in these practices. The chief of these are: meditation on spiritual things, diligent examination of conscience, enclosed retreats, visits to the blessed sacrament, and those special prayers in honor of the Blessed Virgin Mary among which the rosary, as all know, has pride of place.[163][/quote]

That's the only reference in the document to the rosary. So we have no contradicting statements. Just yours.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[b]Judging from Thumper and hot stuff's posts then, ANY and ALL prayers not included in the Sacramentary [/b](which really only outlines what the priest has to do... though I am NOT advocating that the laity may do whatever they want... NEVER!) [b]may NOT be prayed during Mass by the laity.[/b]

THUS, Thumper, even though your suggestions on what to pray in the silence of the Mass are "wrong" according to your strong earlier statements. You may NOT pray after receiving communion anything other than the Communion Antiphon, etc. It's the only provided prayer for that point in the Liturgy.

This doesn't make any sense.

"Recitation"-- praying OUT LOUD during the Mass would seem to make sense, especially recalling from past days when the Mass was in Latin and much of the laity made no effort to learn it and be participatory...

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Oct 18 2005, 12:20 AM']Except for the fact that JPII is not calling for the rosary during mass.  That is a misinterpretation that Thumper has pointed out. [right][snapback]762086[/snapback][/right]
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I never said JPII was calling for people to pray the Rosary during Mass, I claimed he said it doesn't not take away from the Liturgy, but instead helps one enter more deeply into the Mystery of the Liturgy.

Again, WHY would there be an objection (since the JPII document is specifically referring to objections at that point) about praying the Rosary before or after Mass?

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Oct 18 2005, 07:12 AM']I never said JPII was calling for people to pray the Rosary during Mass, I claimed he said it doesn't not take away from the Liturgy, but instead helps one enter more deeply into the Mystery of the Liturgy.

Again, WHY would there be an objection (since the JPII document is specifically referring to objections at that point) about praying the Rosary before or after Mass?
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I don't think anyone, anywhere, is saying you can't or even shouldn't pray the rosary before mass. I think I said it would be a great idea if someone would lead the rosary before every mass on Sunday.

[Brother Adam]

I also don't see any problem squeezing in a decade after holy communion if you want that to be a prayer of thanksgiving for the Eucharist. I don't think you'd have time to pray the whole rosary before the blessing and benediction though. I sometimes say a hail mary, but typically just contemplate Who I have just received.

my biggest concern is people praying the rosary completely missing the responses throughout the mass, not paying attention to the readings or the prayers. That and the Church says it is not appropriate as hot stuff and Thumper have pointed out.

Course I suppose if you have a really bad homilist...

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Oct 18 2005, 08:16 AM']I don't think anyone, anywhere, is saying you can't or even shouldn't pray the rosary before mass. I think I said it would be a great idea if someone would lead the rosary before every mass on Sunday.
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That is my point.

The excerpt from JPII's Letter on the Rosary at that point in the letter, is SPECIFICALLY addressing OBJECTIONS to the Rosary. Since there are no objections to praying the Rosary in relation to the Liturgy before or after Mass... what point is left to assume but during Mass?

[quote] also don't see any problem squeezing in a decade after holy communion if you want that to be a prayer of thanksgiving for the Eucharist. I don't think you'd have time to pray the whole rosary before the blessing and benediction though. I sometimes say a hail mary, but typically just contemplate Who I have just received.

my biggest concern is people praying the rosary completely missing the responses throughout the mass, not paying attention to the readings or the prayers. That and the Church says it is not appropriate as hot stuff and Thumper have pointed out. [/quote]
I don't think there would be a problem either, but the point was raised that we can't pray the Rosary "because it's not in the rubrics" (and setting aside the fact that the rubrics address the priest for a moment, this would mean that we cannot pray anything other than that which is provided in the Sacramentary. Thus, no Anima Christi for after Communion, but only the Communion antiphon, and certainly no Hail Mary's anywhere but before or after the Liturgical celebration. No prayers that aren't provided in the Sacramentary period. No wandering thoughts or devotions, save the exact words and postures provided in the Sacramentary... (which, again, really only addresses the priest)

Doesn't make much sense.
(and again, just to be clear, I am NOT advocating that the laity may do as they please during Mass)

Secondly, I think the distinction was already made about praying the Rosary to the exclusion of particpating in the Liturgy. If one were to sit in at Mass and pray the Rosary without paying attention to the Mass this would be wrong, yes. No one here has opted for the position of praying the Rosary instead of participating in the Liturgy. I don't see how this is an "either....or" proposition (i.e., Rosary OR Mass, you cannot do both... does one necessarily exclude the other?)?

[Jaime]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Oct 18 2005, 06:12 AM']I never said JPII was calling for people to pray the Rosary during Mass, I claimed he said it doesn't not take away from the Liturgy, but instead helps one enter more deeply into the Mystery of the Liturgy.

Again, WHY would there be an objection (since the JPII document is specifically referring to objections at that point) about praying the Rosary before or after Mass?
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I don't think you'll find Thumper, Adam or myself arguing against praying the rosary before or after Mass. The rosary is the most powerful instrument of prayer that we have. JPII was a huge advocate for the rosary. Just not during Mass. And while this annoys PSPX, we don't have any contradictions between popes on the issue.

Again I would throw this out. If other sacraments are not able to overshadow the Liturgy of the Eucharist, why would the rosary?