Eucharistic Prayer in Silence?

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Oct 17 2005, 11:10 PM']By the logic offered here, one could argue that praying any prayer aloud that is not a part of the mass is just fine.  It isn't.  Its against the rubrics of the Mass. 

Praying the rosary is a wonderful thing.  Praying the rosary during mass is against the rubrics of the mass.
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what does one do in the silence of the Mass then? what about after Communion? Since the Sacramentary has no set of prayers for me to pray am I to stare off into dead space and think absolutely nothing save that which is proclaimed from the presider's chair?

ALSO, I'm not advocating praying the Rosary outloud during the Mass... I wasn't aware there was such a practice as that!?

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Oct 17 2005, 11:11 PM']Catholic Church?  No, what you have is one pope's opinion pitted against the opinions of two other popes. Hardley the teaching of the Catholic Church.  I'll stick with the traditional opinion re-affirmed by Pope John Paul II.
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We call that cafeteria catholicism round these parts

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Oct 17 2005, 11:10 PM']By the logic offered here, one could argue that praying any prayer aloud that is not a part of the mass is just fine.  It isn't.  Its against the rubrics of the Mass. 

Praying the rosary is a wonderful thing.  Praying the rosary during mass is against the rubrics of the mass.
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Properly speaking the rubrics of the Mass govern what the priest does. Even in the broad sense praying the rosary is far from a violation of any 'rubric'. Please read the various sources quoted here, especially JPII and Pius XII.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Oct 17 2005, 11:12 PM']what does one do in the silence of the Mass then? what about after Communion? Since the Sacramentary has no set of prayers for me to pray am I to stare off into dead space and think absolutely nothing save that which is proclaimed from the presider's chair?


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Spend time with Jesus?

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Oct 17 2005, 11:13 PM']We call that cafeteria catholicism round these parts
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I don't think anyone calls that cafeteria catholocism! reread what pspx wrote...

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Oct 17 2005, 11:13 PM']We call that cafeteria catholicism round these parts
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If so, then you are as guilty as I am, for you are defending the opinion of one pope over that of others just as we are.

I am quite certain that is not cafeteria catholicism, as this is no disagreement over the actual teachings of the Church.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Part of me wants to suggest that Pope Paul VI is cautioning against praying the Rosary to the exclusion of participation in the Mass...

Otherwise, anything not laid forth in the Missal would be "wrong" to pray during Mass... St. Thomas "Prayer After Communion" (i.e., "Soul of Christ..." etc), even a simple "Lord, let me be attentive to Your Word in the Old Testament reading" would be "wrong".. because it's not prescribed.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Oct 17 2005, 11:14 PM']Spend time with Jesus? 
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see above... that's not called for in the MIssal either.

[Thumper]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Oct 17 2005, 11:11 PM']Catholic Church?  No, what you have is one pope's opinion pitted against the opinions of two other popes. Hardley the teaching of the Catholic Church.  I'll stick with the traditional opinion re-affirmed by Pope John Paul II.
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Actually, you need to go back and look at Roasarium Virginis Mariae. In the section you cited from paragraph 4, JPII is referring back to . . . . Paul VI and Marialis Cultus, who I quoted above as saying that the rosary is not to be prayed during the liturgy.

Just because the word "sustains" is used doesn't mean that the liturgy needs the rosary to "help it along." Rather, I would say that "sustains" is being used in the sense that meditating on the life of Christ through the rosary helps the grace of the liturgy to continue in our lives outside of mass.

[Aloysius]

it is also possible that Paul VI is warning against praying the rosary out loud.

it is true that no prayer not in the rubrics should be prayed out loud. and no other prayer should be prayed to the exclusion (woah I just felt myself reach the same conclusion as fides et ratio lol) of participating in the mass even privately

[Thumper]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Oct 17 2005, 11:20 PM']it is also possible that Paul VI is warning against praying the rosary out loud.

it is true that no prayer not in the rubrics should be prayed out loud.  and no other prayer should be prayed to the exclusion (woah I just felt myself reach the same conclusion as fides et ratio lol) of participating in the mass even privately
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Except that Paul VI wrote: "However, it is a mistake to recite the Rosary during the celebration of the liturgy, though unfortunately this practice still persists here and there."

I think you're pushing it a bit far to say that he's only referring to prayers voiced aloud, particularly given what he has to say about Marian devotional practices during the mass in general (paragraph 31): "It sometimes happens that novenas or similar practices of piety are inserted into the very celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice. This creates the danger that the Lord's Memorial Rite, instead of being the culmination of the meeting of the Christian community, becomes the occasion, as it were, for devotional practices. For those who act in this way we wish to recall the rule laid down by the Council prescribing that exercises of piety should be harmonized with the liturgy, not merged into it. Wise pastoral action should, on the one hand, point out and emphasize the proper nature of the liturgical acts, while on the other hand it should enhance the value of practices of piety in order to adapt them to the needs of individual communities in the Church and to make them valuable aids to the liturgy."

These are aids to the liturgy, but they are not therefore part of the liturgy.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Oct 17 2005, 11:20 PM']it is also possible that Paul VI is warning against praying the rosary out loud.

it is true that no prayer not in the rubrics should be prayed out loud.  and no other prayer should be prayed to the exclusion (woah I just felt myself reach the same conclusion as fides et ratio lol) of participating in the mass even privately
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YAY! Someone understands my point!!


..it just seems illogical to me that a Pope would condemn the praying of the Rosary during the Liturgy and YET AT THE SAME TIME proclaim the Rosary as:

[quote]the Rosary reflects the very way in which the Word of God, mercifully entering into human affairs, brought about the Redemption. The Rosary considers in harmonious succession the principal salvific events accomplished in Christ[/quote]

[quote]the Gospel inspiration of the Rosary has appeared more clearly: the Rosary draws from the Gospel the presentation of the mysteries and its main formulas. As it moves from the angel's joyful greeting and the Virgin's pious assent, the Rosary takes its inspiration from the Gospel to suggest the attitude with which the faithful should recite it. In the harmonious succession of Hail Mary's the Rosary puts before us once more a fundamental mystery of the Gospel-the Incarnation of the Word, contemplated at the decisive moment of the Annunciation to Mary. The Rosary is thus a Gospel prayer, as pastors and scholars like to define it, more today perhaps than in the past.[/quote]

[quote]As a Gospel prayer, centered on the mystery of the redemptive Incarnation, the Rosary is therefore a prayer with a clearly Christological orientation. Its most characteristic element, in fact, the litany-like succession of Hail Mary's, becomes in itself an unceasing praise of Christ, who is the ultimate object both of the angel's announcement and of the greeting of the mother of John the Baptist: "Blessed is the fruit of your womb" (Lk. 1:42).[/quote]



Otherwise, we are left with ABSOLUTE silence in our minds and hearts when the Liturgy has moments of silence. ANY prayer offered even in the silence of our hearts "not in the rubrics" would be a no-no... and that just doesn't make sense.


And this, coming from the Liturgy-Nazi!

But seriously, a person can pray the Rosary and still be fully attentive (if not more so than others) to the Liturgy.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='Thumper' date='Oct 17 2005, 11:25 PM']Except that Paul VI wrote:  "However, it is a mistake to recite the Rosary during the celebration of the liturgy, though unfortunately this practice still persists here and there."

I think you're pushing it a bit far to say that he's only referring to prayers voiced aloud, particularly given what he has to say about Marian devotional practices during the mass in general (paragraph 31):  "It sometimes happens that novenas or similar practices of piety are inserted into the very celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice. This creates the danger that the Lord's Memorial Rite, instead of being the culmination of the meeting of the Christian community, becomes the occasion, as it were, for devotional practices. For those who act in this way we wish to recall the rule laid down by the Council prescribing that exercises of piety should be harmonized with the liturgy, not merged into it. Wise pastoral action should, on the one hand, point out and emphasize the proper nature of the liturgical acts, while on the other hand it should enhance the value of practices of piety in order to adapt them to the needs of individual communities in the Church and to make them valuable aids to the liturgy."

These are aids to the liturgy, but they are not therefore part of the liturgy.
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"recite" is a very concise term... I wonder the Latin?


Also, you must then be against the praying of ANY and ALL prayers not specifically called for in the Sacramentary? No prayers after communion except the Antiphon, etc.?

[Jaime]

For the record, I was a rosary prayer during mass until Thumper came along and showed me the error of my ways.

But to add more fodder to the argument against, let's just take a look at the sacraments. Sacraments can be included in the mass but not in the liturgy of the Eucharist. Why? Because the Eucharist is where its at baby. Everything else is second fiddle. Complete focus, no distractions.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Oct 17 2005, 11:30 PM']For the record, I was a rosary prayer during mass until Thumper came along and showed me the error of my ways. 

But to add more fodder to the argument against, let's just take a look at the sacraments.  Sacraments can be included in the mass but not in the liturgy of the Eucharist.  Why?  Because the Eucharist is where its at baby.  Everything else is second fiddle.  Complete focus, no distractions.
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No St. Thomas "Prayer After Communion" (gah, why cannot I not think of the Latin!?) then? ...it's not called for in the "rubrics"?!

I still don't see how the Rosary takes away from the Eucharist? Or one's focus for that matter? .. I would argue the Rosary draws one closer and ever deeper into the Sacred Mystery of the Eucharist...