Fides_et_Ratio Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Oct 17 2005, 10:46 PM']Why would you not give either your full attention? [right][snapback]761932[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I don't see how one lacks the other? I can't be fully attentive at Mass, listening to all the readings and homily, and meditating on them in relation to the mysteries of the Life of Christ as I pray the Rosary? Does your mind wander at Mass? Even without a Rosary, sadly, the Liturgy does not always gain 100% of my attention. A Rosary would necessarily draw one more deeply into the Mass as one would be meditating on the very life of the One whom we celebrate in the Liturgy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fides_et_Ratio Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Oct 17 2005, 10:48 PM']It's been going on for 500+ years because the faithful didn't have a dang clue what was going on. They were so far removed from the mass behind the roodscreen and the choirstalls they were lucky to hear the bells ringing. i'd find something to occupy my time too. [right][snapback]761939[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Was the Liturgy any less efficacious? Did the Rosary draw them out of the Liturgical event? And I'd object to calling the Rosary merely something to "occupy" one's time. It's not a prayer of the bored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Oct 17 2005, 10:51 PM']Was the Liturgy any less efficacious? Did the Rosary draw them out of the Liturgical event? And I'd object to calling the Rosary merely something to "occupy" one's time. It's not a prayer of the bored. [right][snapback]761947[/snapback][/right] [/quote] 11. But in order that the liturgy may be able to produce its full effects, it is necessary that the faithful come to it with proper dispositions, that their minds should be attuned to their voices, and that they should cooperate with divine grace lest they receive it in vain (28) . Pastors of souls must therefore realize that, when the liturgy is celebrated, something more is required than the mere observation of the laws governing valid and licit celebration; it is their duty also to ensure that the faithful take part fully aware of what they are doing, actively engaged in the rite, and enriched by its effects. But indeed they were bored because they did not know what was going on at mass. Then again, Fr. Dominic Scotto could be off his rocker. But I don't think so. Edited October 18, 2005 by Brother Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fides_et_Ratio Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 But HOW does the Rosary take one out of being in "proper disposition" for the Mass? How can one not be actively engaged in the Liturgy even while praying the Rosary? That's like saying I can't pray the Rosary and drive my car, or pray the Rosary while doing anything other than that which involves simply nothing else but the Rosary. I think of the Liturgy all the time while praying the Rosary. Yes, they are distinct, but they are not exclusive. Praying the Rosary I don't think would draw me out of the Mass... but only deeper into it through the Mysteries of the Rosary. (and, for the record, I've never prayed the Rosary during Mass, but am beginning to think I ought to give it a whirl). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Oct 17 2005, 10:48 PM']It's been going on for 500+ years because the faithful didn't have a dang clue what was going on. They were so far removed from the mass behind the roodscreen and the choirstalls they were lucky to hear the bells ringing. i'd find something to occupy my time too. [right][snapback]761939[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Yes, thank God those damned dark ages are over. The Church is much healthier now that everyone gets gather around the altar, holding hands singing kum-by-yah and participate in eucharist. It is so much better now that we understand what is going on at the altar, unlike those poor saps of days gone by who had no clue what they were missing out on. And it shows. The faith of the Church is so much stronger today.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumper Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 (edited) The question of praying the Rosary during mass is addressed by Paul VI in Marialis Cultis: www.papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6marial.htm. Cliff notes version: the Rosary enhances our participation in the liturgy, both before and after, but is not to be prayed during the Mass. From paragraph 48, specifically about the Rosary: "Finally, as a result of modern reflection the relationships between the liturgy and the Rosary have been more clearly understood. On the one hand it has been emphasized that the Rosary is, as it were, a branch sprung from the ancient trunk of the Christian liturgy, the Psalter of the Blessed Virgin, whereby the humble were associated in the Church's hymn of praise and universal intercession. On the other hand it has been noted that this development occurred at a time -- the last period of the Middle Ages -- when the liturgical spirit was in decline and the faithful were turning from the liturgy towards a devotion to Christ's humanity and to the Blessed Virgin Mary, a devotion favoring a certain external sentiment of piety. Not many years ago some people began to express the desire to see the Rosary included among the rites of the liturgy, while other people, anxious to avoid repetition of former pastoral mistakes, unjustifiably disregarded the Rosary. Today the problem can easily be solved in the light of the principles of the Constitution Sacrosanctum concilium. Liturgical celebrations and the pious practice of the Rosary must be neither set in opposition to one another nor considered as being identical.[114] The more an expression of prayer preserves its own true nature and individual characteristics the more fruitful it becomes. Once the pre-eminent value of liturgical rites has been reaffirmed it will not be difficult to appreciate the fact that the Rosary is a practice of piety which easily harmonizes with the liturgy. In fact, like the liturgy, it is of a community nature, draws its inspiration from Sacred Scripture and is oriented towards the mystery of Christ. The commemoration in the liturgy and the contemplative remembrance proper to the Rosary, although existing on essentially different planes of reality, have as their object the same salvific events wrought by Christ. The former presents anew, under the veil of signs and operative in a hidden way, the great mysteries of our Redemption. The latter, by means of devout contemplation, recalls these same mysteries to the mind of the person praying and stimulates the will to draw from them the norms of living. Once this substantial difference has been established, it is not difficult to understand that the Rosary is an exercise of piety that draws its motivating force from the liturgy and leads naturally back to it, if practiced in conformity with its original inspiration. It does not, however, become part of the liturgy. In fact, meditation on the mysteries of the Rosary, by familiarizing the hearts and minds of the faithful with the mysteries of Christ, can be an excellent preparation for the celebration of those same mysteries in the liturgical action and can also become a continuing echo thereof. However, it is a mistake to recite the Rosary during the celebration of the liturgy, though unfortunately this practice still persists here and there." Edited October 18, 2005 by Thumper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 [quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Oct 17 2005, 10:59 PM']But HOW does the Rosary take one out of being in "proper disposition" for the Mass? How can one not be actively engaged in the Liturgy even while praying the Rosary? That's like saying I can't pray the Rosary and drive my car, or pray the Rosary while doing anything other than that which involves simply nothing else but the Rosary. [right][snapback]761961[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I could very well be alone on this one, but this did not make any sense at all to me. Maybe we need to look at the mass. Now during the rosary you are constantely praying, there is always a part of the rosary that you need to be actively aware of and praying. During the mass, both Latin and Eastern rites, there is a dialogue between the celebrant and the people. Being actively engaged means knowing what is being said, meditating on it, and responding at the appropriate times. I don't see how you can give pious devotion to everything at the same time, both the rosary and any given part of the mass. I'm typically only capable of saying any one thing at any given time, even in my mind. I'm not able to say the Hail, Holy Queen and "Lord I am not worthy to receive, but only say the word..." at the exact same time, and give my attention to both and bring both to my mind heart and soul all at the same time. Then again, maybe I'm just mentally inept. Well, I'm off to bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Oct 17 2005, 10:54 PM'] But indeed they were bored because they did not know what was going on at mass. Then again, Fr. Dominic Scotto could be off his rocker. But I don't think so. [right][snapback]761953[/snapback][/right] [/quote] If Fr. Dominic Scotto suggested such nonsence then I would have to say that he is indeed off his rocker (with all due respect). I go to the same Mass people have for centuries. I can assure you that there is no lack of awareness there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 yeah, it really is absolutely unfair to declare so many centuries of Catholics ignorant of the mysteries of the altar (which they most certainly were not) I really don't think you understand the mentality of one who prays a rosary during a mass. we have attempted to explain it. there is no reason to suppose the mentality was any different 200 years ago with someone praying a rosary during the mass. saying they were just bored and didn't know what the heck was going on is simplistic and unprovable. it is much more likely they did understand what was going on, and what was going on was the exact same thing that they contemplated in their rosaries. so they figured they'd combine the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 [quote name='Thumper' date='Oct 17 2005, 11:02 PM'][b] However, it is a mistake to recite the Rosary during the celebration of the liturgy, though unfortunately this practice still persists here and there."[/b] [right][snapback]761965[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Thank you Catholic Church! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Oct 17 2005, 11:06 PM']yeah, it really is absolutely unfair to declare so many centuries of Catholics ignorant of the mysteries of the altar (which they most certainly were not) I really don't think you understand the mentality of one who prays a rosary during a mass. we have attempted to explain it. there is no reason to suppose the mentality was any different 200 years ago with someone praying a rosary during the mass. saying they were just bored and didn't know what the heck was going on is simplistic and unprovable. [right][snapback]761971[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Beyond unprovable, unfair and simplistic, it is simply absurd to make such a claim in the face of clear evidence to the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fides_et_Ratio Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Oct 17 2005, 11:04 PM']I could very well be alone on this one, but this did not make any sense at all to me. Maybe we need to look at the mass. Now during the rosary you are constantely praying, there is always a part of the rosary that you need to be actively aware of and praying. During the mass, both Latin and Eastern rites, there is a dialogue between the celebrant and the people. Being actively engaged means knowing what is being said, meditating on it, and responding at the appropriate times. I don't see how you can give pious devotion to everything at the same time, both the rosary and any given part of the mass. I'm typically only capable of saying any one thing at any given time, even in my mind. I'm not able to say the Hail, Holy Queen and "Lord I am not worthy to receive, but only say the word..." at the exact same time, and give my attention to both and bring both to my mind heart and soul all at the same time. Then again, maybe I'm just mentally inept. Well, I'm off to bed. [right][snapback]761968[/snapback][/right] [/quote] The Rosary itself is "two things at once"... a meditation and a set of prayers... I pray a Rosary while it's slow at work... sometimes a customer comes in, I can answer their questions and pick right back up where I left off in the Rosary without having to get back in "meditation" mode. The Liturgy itself calls for several moments of silence... in that silence we ought to be prayerful... it would seem to me that the Rosary would draw us ever deeper into the Liturgy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 By the logic offered here, one could argue that praying any prayer aloud that is not a part of the mass is just fine. It isn't. Its against the rubrics of the Mass. Praying the rosary is a wonderful thing. Praying the rosary during mass is against the rubrics of the mass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Oct 17 2005, 11:08 PM']Thank you Catholic Church! [right][snapback]761974[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Catholic Church? No, what you have is one pope's opinion pitted against the opinions of two other popes. Hardley the teaching of the Catholic Church. I'll stick with the traditional opinion re-affirmed by Pope John Paul II. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Oct 17 2005, 11:10 PM']By the logic offered here, one could argue that praying any prayer aloud that is not a part of the mass is just fine. It isn't. Its against the rubrics of the Mass. Praying the rosary is a wonderful thing. Praying the rosary during mass is against the rubrics of the mass. [right][snapback]761980[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Glad I'm not alone on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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