popestpiusx Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Oct 17 2005, 10:03 PM']I'd rather go through the birthing pains of liturgical reform and renewal called for by the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church to reach the place where the Bride of Christ is to go. The mass has been changing for 2000 years. It did not reach the point of perfection in the Tridentine form. Rather in the age of the rubricists the faithful were almost entirely removed from the mass and its meaning. [right][snapback]761859[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I am quite certain that my quote was not an argument against the Novus Ordo, but was rather an argument against rediculous accusations made against the Tridentine Mass. It is useful to actually read the argument in the context in which it is made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fides_et_Ratio Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Oct 17 2005, 10:31 PM']yeah, okay now let's see it in its full context and that it is not in contradiction with SC 11 and so on. I think the rosary is an excellent introduction and could be prayed before mass every Sunday morning. I'm not so sure JPII is saying what you are trying to make him say. [right][snapback]761901[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Take it up with Dr. Miravalle and Rosarium Virginis Mariae.... [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_20021016_rosarium-virginis-mariae_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_pau...-mariae_en.html[/url] In context: [quote]Objections to the Rosary 4. The timeliness of this proposal is evident from a number of considerations. First, the urgent need to counter a certain crisis of the Rosary, which in the present historical and theological context can risk being wrongly devalued, and therefore no longer taught to the younger generation. [b]There are some who think that the centrality of the Liturgy, rightly stressed by the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, necessarily entails giving lesser importance to the Rosary. Yet, as Pope Paul VI made clear, not only does this prayer not conflict with the Liturgy, [i]it sustains it[/i], since it serves as an excellent introduction and a faithful echo of the Liturgy, enabling people to participate fully and interiorly in it and to reap its fruits in their daily lives.[/b] Perhaps too, there are some who fear that the Rosary is somehow unecumenical because of its distinctly Marian character. Yet the Rosary clearly belongs to the kind of veneration of the Mother of God described by the Council: a devotion directed to the Christological centre of the Christian faith, in such a way that “when the Mother is honoured, the Son ... is duly known, loved and glorified”.(8) If properly revitalized, the Rosary is an aid and certainly not a hindrance to ecumenism![/quote] I wasn't editing...not even the italics! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 [quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Oct 17 2005, 10:32 PM']As JPII would say... devotely praying the Rosary IS a partipation in the Liturgy. They are not at odds. [right][snapback]761904[/snapback][/right] [/quote] And in so doing he was quite rightly re-affirming what Pope Pius XII asserted in Mediator Dei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Dr. Miraville is on an extreme fringe with Mariam devotion, I wouldn't even take his classes. You are still trying to make the document say something it doesn't. Pious devotion to the mass and participation in it trumps praying the rosary DURING the mass. The rosary may sustain the liturgy, but there are times for the rosary. Would you say the words of consencration of the Eucharist during a baptism? Of course not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fides_et_Ratio Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Oct 17 2005, 10:39 PM']Dr. Miraville is on an extreme fringe with Mariam devotion, I wouldn't even take his classes. You are still trying to make the document say something it doesn't. Pious devotion to the mass and participation in it trumps praying the rosary DURING the mass. The rosary may sustain the liturgy, but there are times for the rosary. Would you say the words of consencration of the Eucharist during a baptism? Of course not. [right][snapback]761916[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Though I think (especially in regards to apparitions), Dr. Miravalle is extreme... he's not off his rocker. JPII IS specifically talking in that document about praying the Rosary DURING the Liturgy. No one would object to praying the Rosary before or after Mass. Would you object to a priest silently praying the Rosary as he celebrates the Mass... or even a baptism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Oct 17 2005, 10:33 PM']I guess its a good thing I just finished reading all of the liturgical documents then huh? Praying the rosary becuase you don't have the capacity to understand the mass is one thing. Praying it out of the neglect of either ecclesial leaders or willful ignorance is quite another. [right][snapback]761906[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I have also read the documents. In fact, I just read some of them again in order to prepare a response to this thread. So what? The point is, one may pray the rosary at Mas as a way to activly participate in the Mass. This is not a problem. It has been going on for countless centuries, and continues to go on today (among some of the most devout catholics I know, and not all trads) in traditional and Novus Ordo parishes all over the world. And there is nothing wrong with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Oct 17 2005, 10:39 PM']Dr. Miraville is on an extreme fringe with Mariam devotion, I wouldn't even take his classes. You are still trying to make the document say something it doesn't. Pious devotion to the mass and participation in it trumps praying the rosary DURING the mass. The rosary may sustain the liturgy, but there are times for the rosary. Would you say the words of consencration of the Eucharist during a baptism? Of course not. [right][snapback]761916[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Of couse not. It is a different sacrament. If you were a priest you would invalidate the sacarament if you did so in spite of, or instead of the proper form. What's your point? Edited October 18, 2005 by popestpiusx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fides_et_Ratio Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 For my own clarification.. how are the Rosary and the Mass at odds? Does praying the Rosary necessarily mean that one is disregarding the events of the Mass? Can one not do both at the same time? Couldn't the Rosary lead one more deeply into the mysteries celebrated in the Liturgy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 [quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Oct 17 2005, 10:41 PM']Though I think (especially in regards to apparitions), Dr. Miravalle is extreme... he's not off his rocker. JPII IS specifically talking in that document about praying the Rosary DURING the Liturgy. No one would object to praying the Rosary before or after Mass. Would you object to a priest silently praying the Rosary as he celebrates the Mass... or even a baptism? [right][snapback]761923[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I would certianly hope he is focusing on Jesus on the altar rather than Mary at that given moment absolutely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 [quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Oct 17 2005, 10:44 PM']For my own clarification.. how are the Rosary and the Mass at odds? Does praying the Rosary necessarily mean that one is disregarding the events of the Mass? Can one not do both at the same time? Couldn't the Rosary lead one more deeply into the mysteries celebrated in the Liturgy? [right][snapback]761928[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Why would you not give either your full attention? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 you know when you pray the rosary, the body is the prayers but the soul is the meditation on the mysteries. so there is nothing wrong with, rather than picking five of the twenty we have to choose from, meditating on the Sacred Mysteries of the Mass! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fides_et_Ratio Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Oct 17 2005, 10:44 PM']I would certianly hope he is focusing on Jesus on the altar rather than Mary at that given moment absolutely. [right][snapback]761929[/snapback][/right] [/quote] But devotion to Mary doesn't end at Mary... she points and leads to Christ. The Rosary is a christological devotion, truly. All of the mysteries are in relation to Christ (and all but two are explicitly concerning the mysteries of Christ's life). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Oct 17 2005, 10:46 PM']Why would you not give either your full attention? [right][snapback]761932[/snapback][/right] [/quote] why would you not give Christ your full attention rather than focusing so much on prayers to His mother throughout the rosary? it is the same idea. neither looses attention. a rosary can make you more attentive to the mysteries of the mass. a mass can make you more attentive to the mysteries of the rosary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 [quote name='popestpiusx' date='Oct 17 2005, 10:42 PM'] It has been going on for countless centuries, and continues to go on today [right][snapback]761924[/snapback][/right] [/quote] It's been going on for 500+ years because the faithful didn't have a dang clue what was going on. They were so far removed from the mass behind the roodscreen and the choirstalls they were lucky to hear the bells ringing. i'd find something to occupy my time too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 the first thing I pray after receiving the Eucharist is generally a prayer to Mary that she make this wretched soul pleasing to Him as she did to that wretched manger two thousand years ago. am I neglecting Christ in the Eucharist at that point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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