choosing not to be catholic

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='18 May 2010 - 07:36 PM' timestamp='1274225760' post='2113202']
Without having gone to the link, maybe you would be so kind as to point out where he's wrong, apart from grammar?
For the Church to be totally infallible all humans would need to leave. The clergy are also human.
[/quote]
That members within the Church are common humans wasn't his message in the thread.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Winchester' date='19 May 2010 - 01:01 PM' timestamp='1274230884' post='2113278']
That members within the Church are common humans wasn't his message in the thread.
[/quote]

OK, I read the link. He's a bit vague though and my head is blocked up with yet another flu

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Bennn' date='18 May 2010 - 08:14 PM' timestamp='1274224491' post='2113179']
Well, you do seem to harbour lots of hatred toward the Church. It isn't healthy to stare yourself blind upon the faults of the human members of the Church. She's infallible in her eternal doctrines on faith and morals. Yet, you seem to act as if we suspend that infallibility to every single word and act a Cardinal or a Bishop says or does. No where do you see us imply such things. If the Church would consist of Saints alone, she would lose the very core of her sacramental nature, that is to sanctify the sinners so that they inherit eternal life with God. The fact that you seem to return here time after time (and you are welcome here), witnesses of a deep restlesness and lack of inner peace from your part. Is that not enough reason to question your millitant hatred towards our Catholic faith?

You are not at peace, and I wish you would find it in Christ.
[/quote]It's not hatred. It's disappointment and a bit of anger for being duped. My opinion is based on 12 years of Catholic education for myself. another 12 years of school participation as I sent my children to Catholic school. Decades of serious involvement in the Parish. I taught Confirmation classes for years. Between my parents and siblings and myself, we've served in various Parish boards for many, many decades. I was an alcolyte and have childhood friends that became priests, yada, yada, yada.

The Church is NOT infallible with eternal doctrines on faith and morals. A large percentage of priests (especially ambitious ones) are enthralled with power and political manipulation and are less holy than the average Wall Street banker. You can get a priest or bishop or cardinal or pope to support whatever political position you wish. Death penalty is or isn't allowed. Condoms can or can't be used. Iraq war was a crime or just a shame. The Pope is Supreme or Infallible. We should hold hands or not. A State has a right to enforce it's laws or not. The Catechism is isn't infallible doctrine. The USSCB is speaking infallibly or not. The Ordinary Magisterium is infallible or not. You should obey the parish priest or not. Same sex should marry or not. Homosexuality should be accepted or not.

The Catholic Church is the presence of Christ on Earth, yet it fragments itself to Eastern and Western over politics and new infallible or supremacy dogma? The Church is allowing sexually abusive priests remain in ministry while telling everyone that using condoms and masturbation is going to send you to hell. Talk about choking on gnats while swallowing camels...

So a reasonable person is supposed to conclude that a God manifested Himself as a Human and established a Church and then created us so we have a chance to either live in eternal bliss serving God or live in eternal torment. Okay. We go to the Church and find out it's a County Club of Spiritual Crippling, Pay as You Go Sacraments, run by politically minded MEN, plus all the BS of the Institution. Where's your succor, where's your peace, where is God? If there is a God, He certainly isn't in the Institution, but if there is a God, He's supposed to be the Institution.

Meanwhile you've learned right and wrong, good and bad. You have a set of standards and a moral code to live an orderly and decent life and hopefully provide a decent society for your children and grandchildren to pursue the same. You take a hard look at the Church and discern if that is a divine institution that is here to help you, your children, and society. Or is it another political machine operated by men with different purpose and selfish pursuit? Face it. The Church peaked centuries ago and has been a slow motion train wreck happening over the last half dozen centuries.

If it was truly God's Church, what the hell happened when it controlled Kings, Emperors, Rulers and Continents and devolved into the irrelevant wisp it is now? Did God in His Divine Mercy abandon Billions of His creations to DAMNATION yet again? Or more likely, an ominipotent God isn't that fickle and whimsical and doesn't really exist as we mere mortals had foolishly hoped. If Religion is God, then I choose 'no thanks'.

Edited May 19, 2010 by Anomaly

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='19 May 2010 - 06:01 AM' timestamp='1274270499' post='2113535']
It's not hatred. It's disappointment and a bit of anger for being duped. My opinion is based on 12 years of Catholic education for myself. another 12 years of school participation as I sent my children to Catholic school. Decades of serious involvement in the Parish. I taught Confirmation classes for years. Between my parents and siblings and myself, we've served in various Parish boards for many, many decades. I was an alcolyte and have childhood friends that became priests, yada, yada, yada.

The Church is NOT infallible with eternal doctrines on faith and morals. A large percentage of priests (especially ambitious ones) are enthralled with power and political manipulation and are less holy than the average Wall Street banker. You can get a priest or bishop or cardinal or pope to support whatever political position you wish. Death penalty is or isn't allowed. Condoms can or can't be used. Iraq war was a crime or just a shame. The Pope is Supreme or Infallible. We should hold hands or not. A State has a right to enforce it's laws or not. The Catechism is isn't infallible doctrine. The USSCB is speaking infallibly or not. The Ordinary Magisterium is infallible or not. You should obey the parish priest or not. Same sex should marry or not. Homosexuality should be accepted or not.

The Catholic Church is the presence of Christ on Earth, yet it fragments itself to Eastern and Western over politics and new infallible or supremacy dogma? The Church is allowing sexually abusive priests remain in ministry while telling everyone that using condoms and masturbation is going to send you to hell. Talk about choking on gnats while swallowing camels...

So a reasonable person is supposed to conclude that a God manifested Himself as a Human and established a Church and then created us so we have a chance to either live in eternal bliss serving God or live in eternal torment. Okay. We go to the Church and find out it's a County Club of Spiritual Crippling, Pay as You Go Sacraments, run by politically minded MEN, plus all the BS of the Institution. Where's your succor, where's your peace, where is God? If there is a God, He certainly isn't in the Institution, but if there is a God, He's supposed to be the Institution.

Meanwhile you've learned right and wrong, good and bad. You have a set of standards and a moral code to live an orderly and decent life and hopefully provide a decent society for your children and grandchildren to pursue the same. You take a hard look at the Church and discern if that is a divine institution that is here to help you, your children, and society. Or is it another political machine operated by men with different purpose and selfish pursuit? Face it. The Church peaked centuries ago and has been a slow motion train wreck happening over the last half dozen centuries.

If it was truly God's Church, what the hell happened when it controlled Kings, Emperors, Rulers and Continents and devolved into the irrelevant wisp it is now? Did God in His Divine Mercy abandon Billions of His creations to DAMNATION yet again? Or more likely, an ominipotent God isn't that fickle and whimsical and doesn't really exist as we mere mortals had foolishly hoped. If Religion is God, then I choose 'no thanks'.
[/quote]
Your post, which contains a hodgepodge of topics of varying degrees of importance, is a reflection of the crisis presently affecting the Church.

Alas, I attribute this situation to a loss of the sense of Tradition within the Church, which was brought about by the radical liturgical reforms of the late 1960s and early 1970s. Is it any wonder that Catholics (laity and clergy alike) have become theologically confused when time immemorial liturgical practices were simply discarded in a matter of a few years and things that had appeared sacrosanct were suddenly held to be of no importance?

A crisis was inevitable.

[Bennn]

Anomaly

You mix up the imperfections of individuals with the doctrines of the Church. Why do you ignore all the saintly persons the Church has produced over the centuries? Recent examples are Pope John Paul II and Mother Teresa of Calcutta. Think of all the missionary Priests who gave their lives to save others, like St. Maximillian Kolbe. It isn't that hard to find good examples if you would just stop staring yourself blind upon those things that are bad.

Even if a Pope would live a terrible life (and there have been several of those), he would be unable to establish heterodox beliefs as official Catholic teaching, because the Lord would stop him from doing so. That is where the line between the Divine action and human fallibility lies. You rage on about sexual abuse by Priests and other horrid crimes. Yet it seems that you fail to see that the Church, in her very being, condemns these practices, even when many Cardinals and Bishops have failed to respond to these crimes in a correct manner. St. Peter Damian also stressed the importance of radical action against sodomite Priests and Bishops by stripping them from their Ecclesial status and letting them do penance in his Book of Gomorrah.

It is in the first place because of the sex-obsessed culture we live in that apostate Priests become seduced, not because of the Church herself. It is better to pray for the Church than to condemn her (and God) for the faults of her children. The rebellious children had access to all the spiritual nourishment they needed to be victorious over the snares of the devil. Yet, they refused, and this inspires you even more to continue kicking us when we're down.

And, I tell you that the spiritual downfall of so many Clerici within the Church is because Christ allowed satan to damage her because of our sins and those of our fathers. We have forsaken the commandments of God and the Lamb and this is the price we had to pay for it. This had been prophecied by Pope Leo XIII when he was allowed to see a vision that revealed to him the chaos which we now behold with our eyes: The profanation of the sacred, moral decay, and millitant atheïsm raging against the Bride of Christ. This is the hour of satan, but after that God will rebuild the crumbled walls of the holy city and let judgement come upon those who hated Him and His Church. Now is the time of mercy, said the Lord to St. Faustina, and the doors of salvation are opened wide. But woe to those who refuse His mercy until the bitter end, for they have to pass through the door of justice, and who will be able to stand before a God so holy if his robes have not been washed in the Blood of Christ? His Divine Mercy is eternal, but our time on earth is short. If you knew how much He loves you, you would break down in tears and finally embrace His wounded and battered Body. Just give a glimpse of repentance and He will come to your aid.

Pax Domini,
Ben

Edited May 19, 2010 by Bennn

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='20 May 2010 - 01:26 AM' timestamp='1274275587' post='2113568']
Your post, which contains a hodgepodge of topics of varying degrees of importance, is a reflection of the crisis presently affecting the Church.

Alas, I attribute this situation to a loss of the sense of Tradition within the Church, which was brought about by the radical liturgical reforms of the late 1960s and early 1970s. Is it any wonder that Catholics (laity and clergy alike) have become theologically confused when time immemorial liturgical practices were simply discarded in a matter of a few years and things that had appeared sacrosanct were suddenly held to be of no importance?

A crisis was inevitable.
[/quote]

The devil didn't come into being in 1960. The Church has been through many crisis, many much darker times. In fact it probably will never come out of crisis, because if it does it means that the day of reckoning has come and the devil no longer has power. Anominaly's problem is that he has been turned bitter, but it is the work of the devil and it happens to many people. The devil is always testing and probing our weaknesses and hence also the Churches. Most of us refuse to be fooled by it (satan) and see it our job to show people the face of Christ in the Church.

[quote name='Bennn' date='20 May 2010 - 02:42 AM' timestamp='1274280150' post='2113589']
Anomaly

Why do you ignore all the saintly persons the Church has produced over the centuries? Recent examples are Pope John Paul II and Mother Teresa of Calcutta.
[/quote]

satan blinds people to the good works and shows them the much more minor faults. If satan were to lose power, all people would instantly see Gods presence all around them and no-one would have any doubt. Our first prayer is for God to open the eyes of people to the truth. The truth is that the Churches faults are really only very trivial in comparison to its good works.

Edited May 19, 2010 by Mark of the Cross

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='19 May 2010 - 04:50 PM' timestamp='1274309413' post='2113825']
The devil didn't come into being in 1960.[/quote]
Nor did I say that that was the case.

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='19 May 2010 - 04:50 PM' timestamp='1274309413' post='2113825']
The Church has been through many crisis, many much darker times.[/quote]
Again, I never said that this was the only crisis that the Church has ever faced in her long history, but it is the one that has confronted Anomaly and millions of other Catholics in the present age.

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='19 May 2010 - 04:50 PM' timestamp='1274309413' post='2113825']
In fact it probably will never come out of crisis, because if it does it means that the day of reckoning has come and the devil no longer has power. [/quote]
That is an interesting position to hold, but it is just one opinion among many possible opinions.

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='19 May 2010 - 04:50 PM' timestamp='1274309413' post='2113825']
Anominaly's problem is that he has been turned bitter, but it is the work of the devil and it happens to many people.[/quote]
I am not going to try and read Anomaly's heart. I have had conversations with him in the past, and he has never come off as bitter, but perhaps in his private emails to me he chose to approach his concerns differently than in his private correspondence with you.

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='19 May 2010 - 04:50 PM' timestamp='1274309413' post='2113825'] The devil is always testing and probing our weaknesses and hence also the Churches. [/quote]
True enough, but thankfully our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ has already defeated the devil through His death, resurrection, and ascension into glory.

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='19 May 2010 - 04:50 PM' timestamp='1274309413' post='2113825']Most of us refuse to be fooled by it (satan) and see it our job to show people the face of Christ in the Church.[/quote]
I am glad that you take such a positive viewpoint as it concerns "most of us," but since I cannot read any person's heart . . . I have no way of confirming the veracity of your opinion.

Edited May 19, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='20 May 2010 - 11:00 AM' timestamp='1274310046' post='2113832']
Nor did I say that that was the case.

Again, I never said that this was the only crisis that the Church has ever faced in her long history, [u]but it is the one that has confronted Anomaly and millions of other Catholics in the present age.[/u]
[/quote]
But neither did you explain it wasn't, so It was just an impression I got from your post. In the absence of the underlined, I was mislead about what you were implying. You obviously know him and more about what troubles him than I do. I was just putting in my two cents worth from a casual observer point of view. It's an open forum I thought I was allowed to do that? If my views bother you, then I'm sorry you see it that way. You don't have to agree with me, nor I with you.

[quote]True enough, but thankfully our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ has already defeated the devil through His death, resurrection, and ascension into glory.
[/quote]
Maybe you won't agree, but Christ has power over satan and there is nothing satan can do to escape defeat. It is already set that satan is defeated as you have already said, but I still think satan is very active and the cause of wars and suffering and attacks on the Church. It has turned many people bitter towards Catholicism and Christianity since these are it's worst enemy and we need to be aware of it and it's attempts to deceive us. This was all I was trying to point out.

[quote]I am glad that you take such a positive viewpoint as it concerns "most of us," but since I cannot read any person's heart . . . I have no way of confirming the veracity of your opinion.

[/quote]
I'm glad we almost agree on some things! Peace!

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='19 May 2010 - 07:31 PM' timestamp='1274319098' post='2113899']
But neither did you explain it wasn't, so It was just an impression I got from your post. In the absence of the underlined, I was mislead about what you were implying.
[/quote]
My original comment stands up without the "underlined" addition from the later post, because I spoke of [i]the[/i] crisis, i.e., the particular crisis of faith, affecting the Church based on the "hodgepodge" of things described by Anomaly in his post, which is why I quoted what he said in its entirety.

Edited May 20, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='20 May 2010 - 01:47 PM' timestamp='1274320057' post='2113913']
My original comment stands up without the "underlined" addition from the later post, because I spoke of [i]the[/i] crisis, i.e., the particular crisis of faith, affecting the Church based on the "hodgepodge" of things described by Anomaly in his post, which is why I quoted what he said in its entirety.
[/quote]

I see it now! As Reyb would say 'Okay'.

[melporcristo]

+JMJT+

I said no because Catholicism isn't about reading. It's about EXPERIENCING Christ intimately in your life through the Sacraments and through the people you interact with daily.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='19 May 2010 - 08:01 AM' timestamp='1274270499' post='2113535']
It's not hatred. It's disappointment and a bit of anger for being duped. My opinion is based on 12 years of Catholic education for myself. another 12 years of school participation as I sent my children to Catholic school. Decades of serious involvement in the Parish. I taught Confirmation classes for years. Between my parents and siblings and myself, we've served in various Parish boards for many, many decades. I was an alcolyte and have childhood friends that became priests, yada, yada, yada.[/quote]
Sorry to hear your faith and Church journey has not been a smooth road.

[quote]The Church is NOT infallible with eternal doctrines on faith and morals. A large percentage of priests (especially ambitious ones) are enthralled with power and political manipulation and are less holy than the average Wall Street banker. You can get a priest or bishop or cardinal or pope to support whatever political position you wish. Death penalty is or isn't allowed. Condoms can or can't be used. Iraq war was a crime or just a shame. The Pope is Supreme or Infallible. We should hold hands or not. A State has a right to enforce it's laws or not. The Catechism is isn't infallible doctrine. The USSCB is speaking infallibly or not. The Ordinary Magisterium is infallible or not. You should obey the parish priest or not. Same sex should marry or not. Homosexuality should be accepted or not.[/quote]
Your opening statement is about infallibility of doctrine on faith and morals. You then proceed on describing the ugliness of politics, which is not eternal doctrine. If this were a football game and the priests and bishops are players, the infallible doctrines are the playbooks and the politics are how the players behave on the field. It's not the playbook's fault some players are misbehaving.

[quote]The Catholic Church is the presence of Christ on Earth, yet it fragments itself to Eastern and Western over politics and new infallible or supremacy dogma? The Church is allowing sexually abusive priests remain in ministry while telling everyone that using condoms and masturbation is going to send you to hell. Talk about choking on gnats while swallowing camels...[/quote]
The Church believes sexual abuse is sinful and the same for condoms and masturbation. (The Church never stated the sexually abusive priests were not committing sin.) And like all sin, the Church provides an opportunity to repent, to turn away from those things. In prior decades, the Church was encouraged by secular authorities to pursue a path of rehabilitation of sex abusers. This was the knowledge of the time, and time how shown its flaws and adjustments were made on both sides.

[quote]So a reasonable person is supposed to conclude that a God manifested Himself as a Human and established a Church and then created us so we have a chance to either live in eternal bliss serving God or live in eternal torment. Okay. We go to the Church and find out it's a County Club of Spiritual Crippling, Pay as You Go Sacraments, run by politically minded MEN, plus all the BS of the Institution. Where's your succor, where's your peace, where is God? If there is a God, He certainly isn't in the Institution, but if there is a God, He's supposed to be the Institution.

Meanwhile you've learned right and wrong, good and bad. You have a set of standards and a moral code to live an orderly and decent life and hopefully provide a decent society for your children and grandchildren to pursue the same. You take a hard look at the Church and discern if that is a divine institution that is here to help you, your children, and society. Or is it another political machine operated by men with different purpose and selfish pursuit? Face it. The Church peaked centuries ago and has been a slow motion train wreck happening over the last half dozen centuries.[/quote]
Your observations are a commentary on man, not God. Do you remember what happened when Jesus announced his destiny, to be handed over to men? The apostles began to argue who's the greatest. (Lk 9:43-46) God was sitting right before them, but the apostles were too worried about their own interests to be concerned about what was said. If they would have asked, God would have answered. If you remain focused on "what's in it for me," you will fail to find God sitting before you.

[quote]If it was truly God's Church, what the hell happened when it controlled Kings, Emperors, Rulers and Continents and devolved into the irrelevant wisp it is now? Did God in His Divine Mercy abandon Billions of His creations to DAMNATION yet again? Or more likely, an ominipotent God isn't that fickle and whimsical and doesn't really exist as we mere mortals had foolishly hoped. If Religion is God, then I choose 'no thanks'.[/quote]
After the fall of Roman empire, a vacuum in leadership was created. In many cases, the Church had to step in and provide civil authority. Priests would play the role of mayor and such. As the monarchies returned, a passing of power slowly came about. Sometimes this was peaceful where kings honored papal blessings. Sometimes, it was with struggles of course. This was the early beginning of the return of secular governance.

If one does not want the Church to engage in politics and have its hands remain mostly clean, then you probably don't want a return to the Church controlling Kings, Emperors, etc.

Is God protecting his Church? Absolutely. In spite of the flaws of its members, it still survives, spreads the good news, speaks the Truth, influential with governments (Influential with those governments where the [u]people[/u] haven't elected an Exodus like pharaoh of hardened heart.), and doing God's work on earth. So much good carries more weight than the internal and external struggles it deals with.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='19 May 2010 - 08:01 AM' timestamp='1274270499' post='2113535']
It's not hatred. It's disappointment and a bit of anger for being duped. My opinion is based on 12 years of Catholic education for myself. another 12 years of school participation as I sent my children to Catholic school. Decades of serious involvement in the Parish. I taught Confirmation classes for years. Between my parents and siblings and myself, we've served in various Parish boards for many, many decades. I was an alcolyte and have childhood friends that became priests, yada, yada, yada.

The Church is NOT infallible with eternal doctrines on faith and morals. A large percentage of priests (especially ambitious ones) are enthralled with power and political manipulation and are less holy than the average Wall Street banker. You can get a priest or bishop or cardinal or pope to support whatever political position you wish. Death penalty is or isn't allowed. Condoms can or can't be used. Iraq war was a crime or just a shame. The Pope is Supreme or Infallible. We should hold hands or not. A State has a right to enforce it's laws or not. The Catechism is isn't infallible doctrine. The USSCB is speaking infallibly or not. The Ordinary Magisterium is infallible or not. You should obey the parish priest or not. Same sex should marry or not. Homosexuality should be accepted or not.

The Catholic Church is the presence of Christ on Earth, yet it fragments itself to Eastern and Western over politics and new infallible or supremacy dogma? The Church is allowing sexually abusive priests remain in ministry while telling everyone that using condoms and masturbation is going to send you to hell. Talk about choking on gnats while swallowing camels...

So a reasonable person is supposed to conclude that a God manifested Himself as a Human and established a Church and then created us so we have a chance to either live in eternal bliss serving God or live in eternal torment. Okay. We go to the Church and find out it's a County Club of Spiritual Crippling, Pay as You Go Sacraments, run by politically minded MEN, plus all the BS of the Institution. Where's your succor, where's your peace, where is God? If there is a God, He certainly isn't in the Institution, but if there is a God, He's supposed to be the Institution.

Meanwhile you've learned right and wrong, good and bad. You have a set of standards and a moral code to live an orderly and decent life and hopefully provide a decent society for your children and grandchildren to pursue the same. You take a hard look at the Church and discern if that is a divine institution that is here to help you, your children, and society. Or is it another political machine operated by men with different purpose and selfish pursuit? Face it. The Church peaked centuries ago and has been a slow motion train wreck happening over the last half dozen centuries.

If it was truly God's Church, what the hell happened when it controlled Kings, Emperors, Rulers and Continents and devolved into the irrelevant wisp it is now? Did God in His Divine Mercy abandon Billions of His creations to DAMNATION yet again? Or more likely, an ominipotent God isn't that fickle and whimsical and doesn't really exist as we mere mortals had foolishly hoped. If Religion is God, then I choose 'no thanks'.
[/quote]
Peter denied Christ.

[Socrates]

[quote name='kamiller42' date='20 May 2010 - 12:56 PM' timestamp='1274374602' post='2114215']
Sorry to hear your faith and Church journey has not been a smooth road.


Your opening statement is about infallibility of doctrine on faith and morals. You then proceed on describing the ugliness of politics, which is not eternal doctrine. If this were a football game and the priests and bishops are players, the infallible doctrines are the playbooks and the politics are how the players behave on the field. It's not the playbook's fault some players are misbehaving.


The Church believes sexual abuse is sinful and the same for condoms and masturbation. (The Church never stated the sexually abusive priests were not committing sin.) And like all sin, the Church provides an opportunity to repent, to turn away from those things. In prior decades, the Church was encouraged by secular authorities to pursue a path of rehabilitation of sex abusers. This was the knowledge of the time, and time how shown its flaws and adjustments were made on both sides.


Your observations are a commentary on man, not God. Do you remember what happened when Jesus announced his destiny, to be handed over to men? The apostles began to argue who's the greatest. (Lk 9:43-46) God was sitting right before them, but the apostles were too worried about their own interests to be concerned about what was said. If they would have asked, God would have answered. If you remain focused on "what's in it for me," you will fail to find God sitting before you.


After the fall of Roman empire, a vacuum in leadership was created. In many cases, the Church had to step in and provide civil authority. Priests would play the role of mayor and such. As the monarchies returned, a passing of power slowly came about. Sometimes this was peaceful where kings honored papal blessings. Sometimes, it was with struggles of course. This was the early beginning of the return of secular governance.

If one does not want the Church to engage in politics and have its hands remain mostly clean, then you probably don't want a return to the Church controlling Kings, Emperors, etc.

Is God protecting his Church? Absolutely. In spite of the flaws of its members, it still survives, spreads the good news, speaks the Truth, influential with governments (Influential with those governments where the [u]people[/u] haven't elected an Exodus like pharaoh of hardened heart.), and doing God's work on earth. So much good carries more weight than the internal and external struggles it deals with.
[/quote]
Good points, though sadly probably wasted here.

Only the Church's magisterial teaching on matters of faith and morals is infallible.
There is nothing preserving clergy from sin, stupidity, and poor political or administrative decisions.

Edited May 20, 2010 by Socrates

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Socrates' date='20 May 2010 - 02:37 PM' timestamp='1274377026' post='2114238']
Good points, though sadly probably wasted here.

Only the Church's magisterial teaching on matters of faith and morals is infallible.
There is nothing preserving clergy from sin, stupidity, and poor political or administrative decisions.
[/quote]
True it's wasted effort if you think the points are good enough to change my mind, but the topic isn't just about me. I egotisically spouted my personal experience to make the argument about the reasonablness to choose to not be Catholic.

Catholics are pretty much (not all) making the case that it's a slam-dunk rejection of reasonableness to reject Catholicism. That argument is an epic Fail. Take Socrates statement that the Church is infallible on matters of faith and morals, which is a fundamental claim to the obvious legitimacy and need for the Church.

Assume the Church Magesterium is infallible (which I don't believe). The purpose is to provide the necessary and perfect guidance to sinners so they can change and repent. It's clear guidance isn't the case. Just look at the debate over the Death Penalty. Is that topic not a matter of morals? Who can identify the times the Church Magesterium has spoken 'ingallibly'. If I posted a poll here and asked if the Catechism is infallible or not, it would become a heated and controversial debate between Catholics. I know enough priests to have heard lot's of different opinions, so I'm not just picking on Phatmassers.

There is nothing preserving clergy (and lay) from sin, stupidity, and poor political or administrative decisions. We can agree to accept imperfection, but when or where is the limit of this tom-foolery?

The claim for infallibility is a clear black or white statement. But identifying or defining exactly where or when this clearly occurs is as easy as cracking a walnut with a marshmallow. It is undeniable that the Church as an institution has struggled to find clear direction on many topics since the Pentecost. How are decisions made? By men debating and wheeling and dealing and manipulating with various agendas in Councils or meetings or whatever. Who are these men? Men like Cardinal Mahoney or Law or any of the thousands before who lived in Palaces far from the tumolt of the reality of the rest of us.

Being a Catholic for most of my life convinced me of the neccesity of having a "Church" as God's representative in the here and now. But sadly, I've come to know the endemic hypocracy that in my experience is the rule, not the exception and the fairytale hope is slapped away. If you really want to open your mind, read "A Concise History of the Catholic Church" by Bokenkotter and then ask if doubts are reasonable or not.