choosing not to be catholic

[Dust's Sister]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Oct 26 2005, 09:39 PM']I agree with this.
Conversion in an individual comes from the grace of God.  I might share the Truth with someone, but it is not because of me that they convert, but because of God's grace.
There are no valid reasons to deny the Catholic Church.  People choose not to be Catholic either because of ignorance or obstinacy.

unfortunately, most non-Catholics have never been given the opportunity to explore the mystery of the Catholic Faith.
[right][snapback]771524[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

I agree and I feel sorry for protestants, especially my friends who are sometimes too ignorant to try understand my faith. Everytime I try to explain to them something they seem to be not interested in hearing it. It's quite sad.

[Cow of Shame]

[quote name='Dust's Sister' date='Oct 31 2005, 09:25 PM'] Everytime I try to explain to them something they seem to be not interested in hearing it. It's quite sad.
[right][snapback]775423[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Are you ever interested in their explanations of their faith? Do you show understanding & acceptance of their beliefs? I've read several people claim similar things as to what you wrote, and I often wonder if they are being just as 'thickheaded' as their claims against Protestants.

Don't get me wrong...I've tried having discussions with Protestants, and it can be like you're talking to a brick wall. But I also make a concerted effort to understand how they've developed their beliefs.

Part of the problem is the age group you're talking to. In my experience, hs & college aged kids seem to be the most deaf & unbending when it comes to having open discussions about religion...

Edited November 3, 2005 by Cow of Shame

[Didacus]

From Salt of the Earth:

"How many paths is there to heaven?

Then Cardinal Ratzinger:

As many as there are people on the face of the earth."


That pretty much sums up my opinion. If someone reads everything on phatmass and still decides not to be Catholic, we cannot condem in any way. We who sign up here are not saints (I think, certainly not me) and we are not prophets, and thus we cannot reveal in its full integrity the fullness of God's truth. If someone cannot come to God through reading our posts, then they will find another way.


In one of my first posts here on phatmass I wrote:

For all those who lose their way in life, may they find their way in God.


And that's all I have to say about that.

[Ken]

A person can be a christian, a believer in Christ, and not be Catholic. I dont think the catholic church is any better then any one of the different sects of christianity out there. Its all a matter of personal belief. If someone prefers not to be a catholic, they are not wrong, or being unreasonable.

[MichaelFilo]

I think that my post, in light of future posts, may seem to take an incorrect view. It is true, Phatmass is not initself sufficient for conversion, since it works only on the rational level of a human, mostly (Conversion stories are often VERY emotional).

However, I must admit, humans aren't simply unconnected reason, with unconnected emotion, with unconnected spirituality, etc. We are all those things intertwined, and so when one falls to the Faith, so must the rest, or else one will be conflict with themselves.*

There is only one way to Heaven and it is through Christ**. Anyone who believes there maybe another way is damned unless ignorant of Christ. Christ was not kidding when he said the cities that rejected his disciples reject him and that it would be worse for them than in Sodom.

*I do not mean a sort of Cartesian dualism, in fact I like Aquinas much more on the topic. I simply mean that for every person who converts they must get over prejudices on many levels.

**The Church is Christ's body and Christ instituted Her as the ONLY means of salvation; in which it is neccessary to be subject to Her under the representitive of the Supreme Pontiff (cf. Unam Sanctam).

God bless,
Mikey

[DAF]

[quote name='Ken' date='Nov 13 2005, 12:23 AM']A person can be a christian, a believer in Christ, and not be Catholic. I dont think the catholic church is any better then any one of the different sects of christianity out there. Its all a matter of personal belief. If someone prefers not to be a catholic, they are not wrong, or being unreasonable.
[right][snapback]786904[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
True, one who believes in Christ is a Christian, but being a Christian is not in itself sufficient for salvation Ken. It's hard for me to understand how all Christianities can be equal to God when many sects are diametrically opposed in their fundamental beliefs. It's even harder for me to think that Jesus Christ would just leave us to fend for ourselves in terms of salvation. With over 25,000 denominations of christianity, all teaching things a little differently, surely there must be one real church. For us it's Catholicism. Not only do we have a valid line leading directly back to Christ Himself, but we had authority to start our Church-Jesus Christ. That's more than most can say.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Ken' date='Nov 13 2005, 12:23 AM']A person can be a christian, a believer in Christ, and not be Catholic. I dont think the catholic church is any better then any one of the different sects of christianity out there. Its all a matter of personal belief. If someone prefers not to be a catholic, they are not wrong, or being unreasonable.
[right][snapback]786904[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
The Catholic Church is the only one of the countless Christian "sects" that can be traced back continuously all the way to the time of Christ Himself. All other "churches" can be traced back to a founder who broke away from the Catholic Church or from another church. Eastern Orthodox churches go back to the Schism of 1054, when eastern bishops broke away from the authority of Rome. Protestantism goes back to Martin Luther's revolt in 1517.

The Catholic Church is the original and true Christian Church. St. Peter was the first Pope, given the Keys of the Kingdom by Christ.

[PadreSantiago]

mmmm Martin Luthor I salute thee! What a wonderfully delightful man

[Guest Rick777]

I think that if they didnt even consider the church they may be close minded.Of course everyones different

[White Knight]

Yes primary reason because if you read all this information about Catholicism and you absolutely know its the truth, your indangering yourself and being unreasonable at the sametime.

[Resurrexi]

It is always unreasonable for a person to choose not to be Catholic.

There is never a circumstance where it is reasonable to deny the truth.

[Winchester]

[quote name='avemaria40' date='15 October 2005 - 07:18 PM' timestamp='1129418289' post='759655']
I voted no because, God gives us all free will and that person would be using free will.
[/quote]
So in your world, will and reason are synonyms.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='16 May 2010 - 09:55 PM' timestamp='1274061345' post='2111631']
It is always unreasonable for a person to choose not to be Catholic.

There is never a circumstance where it is reasonable to deny the truth.
[/quote]

There is a pretty major (and contestable) assumption on which that deduction rests.

[Fiat_Voluntas_Tua]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='16 May 2010 - 09:55 PM' timestamp='1274061345' post='2111631']
It is always unreasonable for a person to choose not to be Catholic.

There is never a circumstance where it is reasonable to deny the truth.
[/quote]

Are you saying every non-catholic (who is acquainted with the faith) is acting irrational (i.e., contrary to reason)??? I highly disagree! I think whether someone is being reasonable in accepting the truths of the Catholic faith come down on whether the evidence they have in favor of believing them are stronger then the evidence they have for not believing them.

I think some VERY smart atheists would be perfectly rational in reading everything on phatmass and yet still be epistemically justified denying the truths of the Catholic faith... This is like the question of whether someone can reasonable reject the standard arguments for God's existence (e.g., "Aquinas' 5-ways). I think it is fairly common amongst philosophers to say someone could reject them reasonably primarily, because on person rejects a premise of one of the arguements (usually the principle of sufficient reason, or some similar principle). Someone could say, "This argument is [i]VALID [/i]but not [i]SOUND[/i]. If someone were to accept each premise, it would be irrational to reject the conclusion, BUT it is not irrational to reject one of the premises." So too, someone could say, "This is what the Catholic Church asserts as true, but I just don't believe that it is true."

Reason can get you to believe that IF what the Church teaches is true then it would be rational to believe that the bread turns into Christ's flesh at Mass (given that is what the Church teaches), but reason (alone) can't get you to what the Church teaches is true. Many (actually not too many, but some) atheists, they are called "friendly atheists" think Catholics are rational in believing what they believe GIVEN THAT they hold other beliefs. The friendly atheists just think those more basic beliefs are false. (e.g., reason can't get you to believe that the bible is inspired by God, that God is 3 in 1, that bread changes into flesh, etc.). It is not unreasonable to deny this, but it is unreasonable to deny this if you believe what the Church teaches is true.

I don't think a failure to believe the Faith is always grounded in an error in reason.

Edited May 17, 2010 by Fiat_Voluntas_Tua

[MissyP89]

I voted no. The Catholics an individual comes to know here may be the only Catholics they have ever met. And we may be judged by our lack of charity in dailogue in such a way that the person is no longer comfortable with the idea of the Church.

I'm not saying this is the right view, but it's not unreasonable.