Laudate_Dominum Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 [quote name='Antonius' date='Oct 16 2005, 09:06 AM']I voted "yes" because it would be unreasonable to place the weight of conversion solely on a web forum. [right][snapback]760162[/snapback][/right] [/quote] but this is phatmass.. : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 I like to stand on the shoulders of giants like LD so I voted the same as he does, because your poll needs to be qualified more. And this is PHATmass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 to the spiritual giants who preceeded me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmjtina Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Oct 15 2005, 09:45 PM']I refuse to speculate. But if I were to speculate I would say yes. [right][snapback]759879[/snapback][/right] [/quote] yes. If your searching for the Truth, it would be unreasonable. But I'm pretty sure if you read everything, you would follow through with suggestions that state to visit a parish, go on retreat, pray a rosary, etc. I think our Church Scholars could answer what you need and phatcatholic has tons of great stuff in that library. It's crazy to think anyone has read everything and understood it all and refused to be catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scardella Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 Hrm... Many people won't be swayed by a purely intellectual understanding of things. They have to take it to heart for it to touch them. If they were convinced that it was the truth (and in more than in a purely intellectual argumentative way), then, yes, that would be unreasonable. Then, you'd be like the rich young man. I know that in my case, it was the argument of joy in the faces of people who were truly into their faith that sold me. Paul says that "faith comes from hearing." A lot of that is not simply the arguments that people hear. It's from the joy of the proclaimer and his living out of that faith that turns an eloquent speech into a moving exhortation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonius Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 Exactly, intellectutal arguments only help when there are intellectual objections to the Faith and it's Truth. However, what will first get a person to investigate it is the encounter of Christ in the Christian people. I mean (and this is what I've learned from Communion and Liberation) that one will see how Christians treat each other and the rest of the world, how they are happy and peaceful, and everything else. Actions [i]do[/i] speak louder than words. Phatmass and apologetics in general does do a great job of fostering the Holy Spirit to work in people's hearts and minds and can be (and has been!) a big part of the conversion process. However, it ultimately is the Holy Spirit and Free Will. Some people just will choose their own will opposed to God's and that's the drama of existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anastasia13 Posted October 23, 2005 Share Posted October 23, 2005 [quote name='jmjtina' date='Oct 16 2005, 10:05 PM']I think our Church Scholars could answer what you need and phatcatholic has tons of great stuff in that library. It's crazy to think anyone has read everything and understood it all and refused to be catholic. [right][snapback]760774[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Do they have Greek and Aramaic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted October 23, 2005 Share Posted October 23, 2005 I refuse to speculate on such an absurd question. there can be a billion and 1 valid reasons why they would not join the church. doesn't the CCC teach about inconquerable ignorance? None can hope to speak out in the dark and bring every last one to the light of truth, no matter how convincing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted October 24, 2005 Author Share Posted October 24, 2005 [quote]I refuse to speculate on such an absurd question. there can be a billion and 1 valid reasons why they would not join the church. doesn't the CCC teach about inconquerable ignorance? None can hope to speak out in the dark and bring every last one to the light of truth, no matter how convincing[/quote] this is one of the most interesting posts on this thread if not phatmass. what are some of those valid reasons? i'm sure you mean just hypothetically speaking there's probably a lot? but maybe name a few. and just to be sure, what exactly do you mean by inconquerable ignorance? that may very well describe me to a tee but i want to be sure what you mean by it. either way, i'm gonna steal that phrase and make it mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 That inconquerable ignorance is a term I read in the CCC. However, for an ignorance to be inconquerable, you must nonetheless genuinely seek the truth but be unable to grasp it. It is akin, though different, to hardness of heart. If you are ignorant, by no fault of your own, then the sin you commit can diminish in seriousness. but if you insist on 'being' ignorant, then this ignorance is a fault of your own and hence hardness of heart which aggravates the sin committed. It is not something to bank on for one-self so please don't read things I did not intend. The term I used, 'valid' might be a little strong, I should have used a term similar to 'understandable'. And keep in mind that my reply was taking 'the church' as the earthly visible institution, and not the figurative sense of the body of the Lord. As for an example, i can't think of a single one really, but there can be as many as people on earth because the decision to join or not to join the church is something kept wihtin one's private faith. I do believe that not joining the church is not a mortal sin. ______________ ***however, if you define the 'church' as the figurative sense of the body of the Lord, then staying outside the church would mean trouble, adn to this I have no doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photosynthesis Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 [quote name='dUSt' date='Oct 15 2005, 10:15 PM']Well, you said [b]everything[/b]. That's five years worth of debates, arguments and proof. That's a lot of information. Honestly, I don't know how one would be able to read it all and still not believe that the Catholic church is the one true church. That's just me though, and I'm generally very simple minded. [right][snapback]759769[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I agree with this. [quote name='Didacus' date='Oct 23 2005, 03:51 PM']None can hope to speak out in the dark and bring every last one to the light of truth, no matter how convincing. [right][snapback]768246[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Conversion in an individual comes from the grace of God. I might share the Truth with someone, but it is not because of me that they convert, but because of God's grace. [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Oct 23 2005, 09:27 PM']this is one of the most interesting posts on this thread if not phatmass. what are some of those valid reasons? i'm sure you mean just hypothetically speaking there's probably a lot? but maybe name a few. and just to be sure, what exactly do you mean by inconquerable ignorance? that may very well describe me to a tee but i want to be sure what you mean by it. either way, i'm gonna steal that phrase and make it mine.  [right][snapback]768577[/snapback][/right] [/quote] There are no valid reasons to deny the Catholic Church. People choose not to be Catholic either because of ignorance or obstinacy. unfortunately, most non-Catholics have never been given the opportunity to explore the mystery of the Catholic Faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted October 27, 2005 Author Share Posted October 27, 2005 *There are no valid reasons to deny the Catholic Church.* What's frustrating is that I don't even know what you're basing this on. Like many would have the faith and anything contrary to that simply because they have the faith is not valid. Or on the other hand many may be referring to pure logic, one cannot deny, which is understandable. Even more frustrating, one cannot deny the logic that has holes because of the faith that fills in the holes. Even more frustrating yet, one cannot deny the illogicality of them simply because their faith tells them their illogicallity is logical. Yes it's hard to understand what sense you mean of no valid reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photosynthesis Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 The Catholic Church is the fullness and splendor of the Truth God has revealed to all men. You can accept it, and be in the light. You can reject it, and be in the darkness. It doesn't get much simpler than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proud2BCatholic139 Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 Yes, because you can choose to question the faith, but you should beleive everything on what the church teaches. However, if it was on PM and no one backed it up, then yeah. But, if you are confirmed in the Catholic Church, you can not sin against the Holy Spirit. That is a grave and serious sin which you can not be forgiven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust's Sister Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 [quote name='Proud2BCatholic139' date='Oct 27 2005, 11:37 AM'] But, if you are confirmed in the Catholic Church, you can not sin against the Holy Spirit. That is a grave and serious sin which you can not be forgiven. [right][snapback]771935[/snapback][/right] [/quote] What do you mean by that exactly? what if one backs away from the Church for a while, but comes back to it, and comes to confession and confesses everything, can't your sins be forgiven then? I may just be misintriputating your words. Explain what you mean. Or could someone else help her out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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