Archbishop Warns Against Liturgy Nostalgia

[cappie]

Hobart's Archbishop Adrian Doyle has spoken of the folly of looking back at the pre-Vatican II liturgy with rose-tinted glasses and forgetting the enrichment the Council's reforms have added to the life of the Church.

Addressing a gathering of Tasmanian liturgists in Hobart on Tuesday, he said the liturgy was more uplifting in the "good old days", just as "tomatoes tasted better and the bread was fresher and crustier".

He said memories of the past don't always fit reality, but that there are "some Catholics who have the same attitude to their religion and in particular to the liturgy".

Archbishop Doyle was speaking ahead of today's 40th anniversary of the Council Document on liturgy Sacrosanctum Concilium.

"Anyone taking the time to read the Council's Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, promulgated 40 years ago this week, would soon realise what the good old days were really like," he said. "Before the Second Vatican Council the liturgy was, in many ways, the private preserve of the clergy. It was conducted in a language very few of the laity understood."

The archbishop payed tribute to the leadership role a previous Archbishop of Hobart - Guildford Young - played in promoting liturgical reform in Tasmania, but also nationally and internationally. Archbishop Young was one of four English-speaking bishops at Vatican II to propose a joint commission of English-speaking bishops conferences to do translations, which has predominated until recently as the International Commission for English in the Liturgy.

[Good Friday]

I think the Holy Father got rather nostaglic himself about the Traditional Latin Mass in his encyclical, Ecclesia Dei.

There's nothing wrong with liking the Traditional Mass. I'd love for His Excellency to kindly point me to the part of Sacrosanctum Concilium that says, "Before the Second Vatican Council the liturgy was, in many ways, the private preserve of the clergy. It was conducted in a language very few of the laity understood." On the contrary, Sacrosanctum Concilium specifically said that the Latin language is important to the Church, but the vernacular could also be used.

The intense dichotomy between the Traditional Latin Mass and the Novus Ordo Mass must stop. This was not what the Second Vatican Council or His Holiness Pope Paul VI intended. The problem is that some in the Church are not willing to accept the Traditional Latin Mass, and that some are not willing to accept the Novus Ordo Mass. There is room in the Latin Rite for both, and neither should be suppressed or looked upon with scorn by any Catholic.

With all due respect to His Excellency, traditionalists and normal Catholics wouldn't have so much problem with the Novus Ordo Mass if the International Commission for English in the Liturgy hadn't butchered it. The "butchered form" of the Novus Ordo Mass is the only experience most English-speaking Catholics have of it, so it's no wonder that many are so opposed to it. If they were to experience it in Latin, to see an accurate translation of it into English, to experience it with traditional Catholic music and incense and all the things that the Second Vatican Council said should remain in the liturgy, they may like it.

The problem is that they're not seeing this part of the Novus Ordo Mass. They're seeing our statues being thrown out, relics frowned upon, kneelers stripped away, the Tabernacle moved to a non-central location, raisin bread used for the Eucharist, and a number of other abuses condemned by the Church before, during, and after the Second Vatican Council. They blame these abuses on the Novus Ordo Mass, never realizing that statues, relics, kneelers, Tabernacles, unleavened bread, Latin, Gregorian chant, incense, etc. were all supposed to remain a part of the Novus Ordo Mass. In Papal Masses and in Masses celebrated in many non-English countries, these things have remained intact.

With all due respect to His Excellency, he should not lie to the faithful about what the Second Vatican Council really called for. Rather than embracing the liturgical abuses disguised as reform, perpetrated by ICEL and liberal dissidents, he should be embracing the authentic reform of the liturgy called for by the Second Vatican Council, by His Holiness Pope Paul VI, and by His Holiness Pope John Paul II.

The authentic reform of the liturgy does not include "kumbuyah," raisin bread, and touchy-feelies at the sign of peace and the Our Father. The authentic reform of the liturgy means making the liturgy more meaningful for the People of God so that they will better worship Almighty God. It does not mean dumbing-down, it means making it even better than it was before.

[Anna]

(And don't forget ceramic vessels for the Sacred Species!)

The Archbishop sounds as though he's got a chip on his shoulder. He's shooting the messenger, poking fun of people's sense of the sacred in order to discredit them. Sounds more like pushing an agenda than promoting holiness.

Good Friday, have I told you lately that you are terrific? :wub:

cappie, would I be putting you on the spot if I asked how you feel about the Archbishop's remarks?

Pax Christi. <><

[Good Friday]

The Archbishop sounds as though he's got a chip on his shoulder. He's shooting the messenger, poking fun of people's sense of the sacred in order to discredit them. Sounds more like pushing an agenda than promoting holiness.

There was another Bishop, I want to say it was Bishop Trautman, to make similar remarks lately. Some of the English-speaking Bishops are up in arms because the Vatican has finally put a stop to the abuses of ICEL, and is retranslating the Novus Ordo Mass so that it will be more faithful to the Latin original. I think Cardinal Arinze is finally going to crack down on the "militant liturgists" who have taken over the Church in America, and since some of these Bishops are among those liturgists, they're not liking it.

Good Friday, have I told you lately that you are terrific?

Nah, I'd just like to see the Mass be less watered-down. I think a Mass more faithful to the original Novus Ordo (the one still celebrated by the Holy Father, and in non-English countries) would help to curb the "great apostasy" going on in the American Church and in the Church in English-speaking countries. One has to note that apostasy, heresy, and schism run rampant in countries where ICEL has dumbed-down the Mass. Surely this is not coincidence.

cappie, would I be putting you on the spot if I asked how you feel about the Archbishop's remarks?

Don't worry cappie, we won't bite. :D I'm angry at the Archbishop, not you.

[M.SIGGA]

What about those who suffer from pre Vatican II church design and devotion nostalgia? I'm all about the Novus Ordo, but can we bring back the artwork and the traditional prayers?

[cappie]

No problem Good Friday/Anna :D

I agree with Cardinal Arinze's address as quoted atAdoremus

As a priest I have suffered from so called experts (terrorists may be a better word!)

I hope and pray the polarisation and division will cease :(

[Spiritual_Arsonist]

This is one of my pet peeves.

The liturgy is in shambles (literally) right now and bishops are warning against nostalgia? What the heck is up?

I have been to Tridentine Masses before and I would prefer that at once over the Pauline Mass.

[BLAZEr]

This bishop must be reading a different "translation" of Sacrosanctum Concillium than I read. I see no where in that Document any hint that the Bishops believed that the mass was the private preserve of the Clergy. What SC did propose was an emphasis on the Catechetical nature of the mass. This was a good point. But SC did not propose the changes we have seen in the mass. I cannot find the current mass in Sacrosanctum Concillium.

[Anna]

As a priest I have suffered from so called experts (terrorists may be a better word!)

I think it was you who said it, "the difference between a liturgist and a terrorist, is that you can negotiate with a terrorist!"

I would be so happy if in my lifetime, liturgical abuses are corrected, and a pure and holy Mass is offered to God for His people, and for the whole world.

Pax Christi.<><

[PedroX]

Nathan,

amesome post. Your point was stated firmly, but without ranting. Thanks. you said if for me.

M.Sigga, I to suffer from arichitecture nostalgia. Ah well, 1950 years was a good run for Catholic design and art. I suppose we will just have to wait for a reblooming.

peace...

[cmotherofpirl]

I think the Holy Father got rather nostaglic himself about the Traditional Latin Mass in his encyclical, Ecclesia Dei.

There's nothing wrong with liking the Traditional Mass.  I'd love for His Excellency to kindly point me to the part of Sacrosanctum Concilium that says, "Before the Second Vatican Council the liturgy was, in many ways, the private preserve of the clergy. It was conducted in a language very few of the laity understood."  On the contrary, Sacrosanctum Concilium specifically said that the Latin language is important to the Church, but the vernacular could also be used.

The intense dichotomy between the Traditional Latin Mass and the Novus Ordo Mass must stop.  This was not what the Second Vatican Council or His Holiness Pope Paul VI intended.  The problem is that some in the Church are not willing to accept the Traditional Latin Mass, and that some are not willing to accept the Novus Ordo Mass.  There is room in the Latin Rite for both, and neither should be suppressed or looked upon with scorn by any Catholic.

With all due respect to His Excellency, traditionalists and normal Catholics wouldn't have so much problem with the Novus Ordo Mass if the International Commission for English in the Liturgy hadn't butchered it.  The "butchered form" of the Novus Ordo Mass is the only experience most English-speaking Catholics have of it, so it's no wonder that many are so opposed to it.  If they were to experience it in Latin, to see an accurate translation of it into English, to experience it with traditional Catholic music and incense and all the things that the Second Vatican Council said should remain in the liturgy, they may like it.

The problem is that they're not seeing this part of the Novus Ordo Mass.  They're seeing our statues being thrown out, relics frowned upon, kneelers stripped away, the Tabernacle moved to a non-central location, raisin bread used for the Eucharist, and a number of other abuses condemned by the Church before, during, and after the Second Vatican Council.  They blame these abuses on the Novus Ordo Mass, never realizing that statues, relics, kneelers, Tabernacles, unleavened bread, Latin, Gregorian chant, incense, etc. were all supposed to remain a part of the Novus Ordo Mass.  In Papal Masses and in Masses celebrated in many non-English countries, these things have remained intact.

With all due respect to His Excellency, he should not lie to the faithful about what the Second Vatican Council really called for.  Rather than embracing the liturgical abuses disguised as reform, perpetrated by ICEL and liberal dissidents, he should be embracing the authentic reform of the liturgy called for by the Second Vatican Council, by His Holiness Pope Paul VI, and by His Holiness Pope John Paul II.

The authentic reform of the liturgy does not include "kumbuyah," raisin bread, and touchy-feelies at the sign of peace and the Our Father.  The authentic reform of the liturgy means making the liturgy more meaningful for the People of God so that they will better worship Almighty God.  It does not mean dumbing-down, it means making it even better than it was before.

THe remarks are from a Aussie Bishop who has a different set of experiences than an American or European bishop.

Remember context.

[p0lar_bear]

The question of the use of Latin aside, Archbishop Doyle makes a valid point. People often fail to remember the problems and abuses that existed before the liturgical reforms of the Second Vatican Council and the "Novus Ordo" Mass. Reforms were made because there were problems. Clericalism and a detachment of the laity from the Mass were two of those problems.

[Norseman82]

As a priest I have suffered from so called experts (terrorists may be a better word!)

Well, when you wrote about the "Tasmanian liturgists" I immediately thought of the "Tasmanian devils"!!! :lol: