Cam42 Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Oct 15 2005, 07:07 PM']fine cam i will honor your request. [right][snapback]759648[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Thanks..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 how should i study the tradition of the church? should i just read the documents of the second vatican council or what? sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Oct 15 2005, 07:56 PM']how should i study the tradition of the church? should i just read the documents of the second vatican council or what? sam [right][snapback]759691[/snapback][/right] [/quote] That would be a start. Prayerful reading of the documents. There are many sources for study. The writings of then Cardinal Ratzinger and the various articles, etc. from Coalition Ecclesia Dei. I would start there. From those documents, you can read from the Una Voce website, I would start with the [url="http://www.fiuv.org/index.asp"]International Federation Una Voce.[/url] From there you can do your own study......start with the documents of Vatican Council II though......and get some solid advice from a validly ordained priest with faculties that are in place and recognized from the local Ordinary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 thanks cam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ora et Labora Posted October 16, 2005 Author Share Posted October 16, 2005 Okay...I dont know what you and Sam think of eachother, Cam...but...I didnt start this thread to have people diss eachother. But if thats not what your doing and I'm just confused...okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 [quote name='Ora et Labora' date='Oct 16 2005, 04:25 PM']Okay...I dont know what you and Sam think of eachother, Cam...but...I didnt start this thread to have people diss eachother. But if thats not what your doing and I'm just confused...okay. [right][snapback]760364[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Here is the deal.....the SSPX is a touchy issue for any faithful Catholic. They abuse the Church, just as any liberal group out there. As far as the "dissing" goes, I was simply responding to Sam's statements. There is no malice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 Calling into the question the validty of the Novus Ordo on the grounds of intention is valid. Within the twolitrugies, there maybe something in the TLM that requires a priest to announce his intent, which is, of course, no present in the Novus Ordo. This lack of clarification of intent does at least call into question the intent of the priest. On those grounds, I could question the validty of any Mass, simply because the priests of today are questionable. You cannot deny that as long as we do not know the intent of the priest, we cannot be assured of the validity of the Mass. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Oct 16 2005, 07:54 PM']Calling into the question the validty of the Novus Ordo on the grounds of intention is valid. Within the twolitrugies, there maybe something in the TLM that requires a priest to announce his intent, which is, of course, no present in the Novus Ordo. This lack of clarification of intent does at least call into question the intent of the priest. On those grounds, I could question the validty of any Mass, simply because the priests of today are questionable. You cannot deny that as long as we do not know the intent of the priest, we cannot be assured of the validity of the Mass. God bless, Mikey [right][snapback]760523[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Buttered Shrimp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 which part of the Tridentine Missal not present in the Pauline Missal do you claim announces the priest's intent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 I said maybe at the start for a very good reason. I don't know if such a thing exists at all. But, I doubt the claim is based on nothing. If I didn't have work to do, I'd deposit some time into it. Anyways, I'm not saying I'm right, but I sure can see how I came across that way. Let me refocus my position; I meant to say that there maybe a line or a prayer during the TLM where the priest's intent is annunciated. I doubt the SSPX would say something like, " the NO doesn't show the priests intent" without having some reference in the TLM. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Oct 16 2005, 06:54 PM'] You cannot deny that as long as we do not know the intent of the priest, we cannot be assured of the validity of the Mass. God bless, Mikey [right][snapback]760523[/snapback][/right] [/quote] That is not correct. As long as a validly ordained priest says the mass according to the rubrics, the mass is valid. This applies to the other sacraments as well. We can never, in the sense you imply, know the inner intentions of the priest. If the priest could be "fooling us" about his intentions, and this would invalidate a mass, then he could just as easily lyingly recite whatever "statement of intent" you refer to, but really intend otherwise. Then we could never, ever, really know whether any mass of any rite is valid. Fortunately for us, the validity of the mass is not determined in this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 he must intend to do what the Church does, even if he does not know, understand, or believe what the Church does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Oct 16 2005, 08:18 PM']he must intend to do what the Church does, even if he does not know, understand, or believe what the Church does. [right][snapback]760603[/snapback][/right] [/quote] How can we really know one's inner intent? It seems the best we can ever really have is a very good assumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Oct 16 2005, 09:23 PM']How can we really know one's inner intent? It seems the best we can ever really have is a very good assumption. [right][snapback]760607[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Because by one's ordination there is an indellible mark placed upon his soul. He promises obedience to his Ordinary and successors. By doing that he is declaring his intent. To serve the Church. Look to the ordination Rites of the deaconate and the priesthood and the intentions are clear.....We assume that the intent remains until he publicly renounces this, by leaving the active ministry. However, that is still speculation, because we don't know the circumstances of all of those who leave. Some may still have the intent at heart. What we are discussing right now is the fundamental error of the SSPX's position. They assume that they know the intent of the Church. And that intnent which they claim to know is contrary to every document, pronunciation and breath of the last 40-some-odd years. Hence the schism. See the error you are making Mikey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ora et Labora Posted October 17, 2005 Author Share Posted October 17, 2005 I understand. Thanks you guys! Yours in Christ, Kristina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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