Rome or Israel?

[son_of_angels]

[quote]539: The evangelists indicate the salvific meaning of this mysterious event: Jesus is the new Adam who remained faithful just where the first Adam had given in to temptation.  [b]Jesus fulfills Israel's vocation perfectly: in contrast to those who had once provoked God during forty years in the desert..[/b][/quote]

[quote]123: Christians venerate the Old Testament as true Word of God.  The Church has always vigorously opposed the idea of rejecting the Old Testament under the pretext that the New has rendered it void (Marcionism).[/quote]

[Cam42]

Those quotes prove nothing.

[son_of_angels]

It doesn't answer the question (the post above was before I saw your comment). You haven't defined these, and what "the essential" elements of Judaism are.

[Cam42]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Oct 9 2005, 12:53 AM']It doesn't answer the question (the post above was before I saw your comment).  You haven't defined these, and what "the essential" elements of Judaism are.
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You didn't ask what the essential elements of Judaism were, you asked what would constitute something being a sect.

Hasidic Jews, et al. constitute sects. Christianity does not.

Your quotes, from the Catechism (I assume) are incomplete....couple that with the following paragraphs and you will see that it supports my position.

[quote name='CCC 541']Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying: 'The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent, and believe in the gospel.'" "To carry out the will of the Father Christ inaugurated the kingdom of heaven on earth." Now the Father's will is "to raise up men to share in his own divine life". [b]He does this by gathering men around his Son Jesus Christ. This gathering is the Church, "on earth the seed and beginning of that kingdoms"[/b].[/quote]

Notice there is nothing mentioned about being Jewish, first.

And this shows that we are not part of Judaism at all, but rather that my position is supported......

[quote name='CCC 543']Everyone is called to enter the kingdom. First announced to the children of Israel, this messianic kingdom is intended to accept men of all nations. To enter it, one must first accept Jesus' word:

The word of the Lord is compared to a seed which is sown in a field; those who hear it with faith and are numbered among the little flock of Christ have truly received the kingdom. Then, by its own power, the seed sprouts and grows until the harvest.[/quote]

[quote name='CCC 122']Indeed, "the economy of the Old Testament was deliberately so oriented that it should prepare for and declare in prophecy the coming of Christ, redeemer of all men." "Even though they contain matters imperfect and provisional," the books of the Old Testament bear witness to the whole divine pedagogy of God's saving love: these writings "are a storehouse of sublime teaching on God and of sound wisdom on human life, as well as a wonderful treasury of prayers; in them, too, the mystery of our salvation is present in a hidden way."[/quote]

Notice that we are not talking about Judaism, but rather the Old Testament. We are talking about what is revealed by God, before Christ entered into humanity. There is inherent good in that. This is the reason that CCC 123 is written. It is also the reason that CCC 122 is written. The Old Covenant has permanent value, but that doesn't mean that we are ultimately a Jewish sect.

As a matter of clarification, nothing lends to that assertion. In the Catechism or otherwise, from a Catholic catechetical point of view.

And here is how we are to view the OT:

[quote name='CCC 129']Christians therefore read the Old Testament in the light of Christ crucified and risen. Such typological reading discloses the inexhaustible content of the Old Testament; but it must not make us forget that the Old Testament retains its own intrinsic value as Revelation reaffirmed by our Lord himself. Besides, the New Testament has to be read in the light of the Old. Early Christian catechesis made constant use of the Old Testament. As an old saying put it, the New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New.[/quote]

[son_of_angels]

Let me answer my own question, seeing as you refuse to,

In defining relgious Judaism, and all sects derive from these, I accept the following as definitions,

1. Judaism is that faith laid down by Moses to be followed and kept for all time.

2. Judaism renders an opinion and a practical interpretation of the writings of the prophets and the History of Israel in relation to the revelation of God.

3. Judaism is the connection between the present day and the events written about in the Torah, both culturally and religiously.

These all define religious Judaism, and in which Christianity finds a place. By saying that Christianity is a sect of Judaism, I am not arguing that we somehow "derive" or are secondary to the Judaism which is held among many of today's carnal Jews, nor that we do not claim an essential change in the application of the Law and the Prophets, nor that we are somehow bound to the Law in all of its specifics (at least in a carnal way). We are instead the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets, just as, in a different way, the Essenes would so claim, the Pharisees would so claim, and today the rabbinical Jews would claim.

To say that we are not the ultimate fulfillment, and therefore, in human terms, a sect and interpretation of the Law, i.e. Judaism, is tantamount to saying that Jesus failed in his mission of saving Israel. Instead, I say that I am a Jew and God-fearer, though not a Hebrew, circumcised according to the Spirit by my adoption in Christ, grafted into the line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Remember that it was partly the enlightenment of St. Augustine concerning the Tanakh which brought about his conversion, and it was, at least partly, the rejection of the law, which is carnal, that led the Manichees into error. Moreover, Marcion was led even to conclude that the God of the Old Testament was not his God, because he could not find the connection between Judaism and Christianity.

It is true that modern, and even somewhat ancient Judaism, is completely different from Christianity. It is also true that in every way Judaism has been transformed in Christ, and there is no Judaism besides that which subsists in Him. Ergo, we are a sect of Judaism. That we want to claim, whether we have a right to do so or not, special privileges in that regard is of little effect.

Edited October 9, 2005 by son_of_angels

[Cam42]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Oct 9 2005, 01:52 AM']Let me answer my own question, seeing as you refuse to,

In defining relgious Judaism, and all sects derive from these, I accept the following as definitions,

1. Judaism is that faith laid down by Moses to be followed and kept for all time.

2. Judaism renders an opinion and a practical interpretation of the writings of the prophets and the History of Israel in relation to the revelation of God.

3. Judaism is the  connection between the present day and the events written about in the Torah, both culturally and religiously.

These all define religious Judaism, and in which Christianity finds a place.  By saying that Christianity is a sect of Judaism, I am not arguing that we somehow "derive" or are secondary to the Judaism which is held among many of today's carnal Jews, nor that we do not claim an essential change in the application of the Law and the Prophets, nor that we are somehow bound to the Law in all of its specifics (at least in a carnal way).  We are instead the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets, just as, in a different way, the Essenes would so claim, the Pharisees would so claim, and today the rabbinical Jews would claim.

To say that we are not the ultimate fulfillment, and therefore, in human terms, a sect and interpretation of the Law, i.e. Judaism, is tantamount to saying that Jesus failed in his mission of saving Israel.  Instead, I say that I am a Jew and God-fearer, though not a Hebrew, circumcised according to the Spirit by my adoption in Christ, grafted into the line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 

Remember  that it was partly the enlightenment of St. Augustine concerning the Tanakh which brought about his conversion, and it was, at least partly, the rejection of the law, which is carnal, that led the Manichees into error.  Moreover, Marcion was led even to conclude that the God of the Old Testament was not his God, because he could not find the connection between Judaism and Christianity.

It is true that modern, and even somewhat ancient Judaism, is completely different from Christianity.  It is also true that in every way Judaism has been transformed in Christ, and there is no Judaism besides that which subsists in Him.  Ergo, we are a sect of Judaism.  That we want to claim, whether we have a right to do so or not, special privileges in that regard is of little effect.
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And that view is incorrect.

Christianity is the name given to that definite system of religious belief and practice which was taught by Jesus Christ in the country of Palestine, during the reign of the Roman Emperor, Tiberius, and was promulgated, after its Founder's death, for the acceptance of the whole world, by certain chosen men among His followers. According to the accepted chronology, these began their mission on the day of Pentecost, A.D. 29, which day is regarded, accordingly, as the birthday of the Christian Church.

While we can trace preparation through the Jewish people, we can also trace, too, in the world at large, apart from the Jewish people, a similar though less direct preparation. Whether due ultimately to the Old Testament predictions or to the fragments of the original revelation handed down amongst the Gentile, a certain vague expectation of the coming of a great conqueror seems to have existed in the East and to a certain extent in the Roman worlds, in the midst of which the new religion had its birth.

During his whole mortal life on earth, including the two or three years of His active ministry, Christ lived as a devout Jew, Himself observing, and insisting on His followers observing, the injunctions of the Law (Matt. 23:3). The sum of His teaching, as of that of His precursor, was the approach of the "Kingdom of God", meaning not only the rule of righteousness in the individual heart ("the kingdom of God is within you" — Luke 17:21), but also the Church (as is plain from many of the parables) which He was about to institute. Yet, though He often foreshadowed a time when the Law as such would cease to bind, and though He Himself in proof of His Messiahship occasionally set aside its provisions ("For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath", Matt. 12:8), yet, as, in spite of His miracles, He did not win recognition of that Messiahship, still less of His Divinity, from the Jews at large. He confined His explicit teaching about the Church to His immediate followers, and left it to them, when the time came, openly to pronounce the abrogation of the Law. (Acts 15:5-11, 18; Gal. 3:19; 24-28; Eph. 2:2, 14-15; Coloss. 2:16, 17; Heb. 7:12.)

[b]It was not so much, then, by propounding the dogmas of Christianity as by informing the Old Law with the spirit of Christian ethics that Christ found Himself able to prepare Jewish hearts for the religion to come.[/b]

The death and resurrection of Jesus fulfilled the ancient types and prophecies concerning Him (cf. Luke 24:26-27), and the visible bestowal of the Holy Ghost upon His assembled followers on Pentecost Day gave them the light to realize this fulfilment (Acts 3:15) and the courage to proclaim it even in the hearing of those Jewish authorities who thought that they had by the stigma of the Cross put an end forever to the Messianic claims of the Nazarene.

From this moment the Church which Jesus had silently organized during His mortal life with Peter as its head and the other Apostles as his fellow-rulers, took the independent attitude which it has maintained ever since. Conscious of their Divine mission, its leaders boldly charged the Jewish rulers with the death of Jesus, and freely "taught and preached Christ Jesus", disregarding the threats and injunctions of men whom they considered as in mad revolt against God and His Christ (Acts 4).

But Christ claimed to fulfil the Law by substituting the substance for the shadow and the gift for the promise, and, the end having been reached, all that was temporary and provisional in Judaism came to a conclusion. Still, a direct divine intervention was necessary to bring this about, just as, in any rational account of the theory of evolution, recourse must be had to supernatural power to bridge the gulf between being and non-being, life and non-life, reason and non-reason. "God, who, at sundry times and in divers manner, spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets, least of all in these days hat spoken to us by his Son" (Heb. 1:1-2), the message growing in clearness and in content with each successive utterance till it reached completion in the Incarnation of the Word.

Much as in these early days the infant Church was Jewish in external appearance, it even then caused Judaism to feel threatened in its whole system of civil and religious life (Acts 6:13-14). Hence followed a severe persecution against the Christians, in which Saul (Paul) took and active part, and in the course of which he was converted miraculously.

As I said earlier:

[quote name='Cam42']The Christianity, then, which the Apostles preached on the day of Pentecost was entirely distinct from Judaism, especially as understood by the Jews of the time; it was a new religion, new in its Founder, new in much of its creed, new in its attitude towards both God and man, new in the spirit of its moral code.[/quote]

"The Law was given by Moses; grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:17). St. Paul, as was to be expected, is our clearest witness on this point. "If any man be in Christ", he says, "he is a new creature; old things are passed away; behold all things are new" (2 Cor. 5:17).

You have offered your opinion, and that is fine. However, your opinion is erroneous. The Church, Sacred Scripture and Tradition do not support your position. Christianity and ulitmately Catholicism, are not compatible with ancient Judaism. Christianity is a separate and complete religion from Judaism. There is no proof so show that the contrary exists.

There was a heresy in the early Church that was concerned with this thinking was the Ebionite Heresy. It was put down early, and showed that Christianity was a separate and distinct religion from the Church.

[photosynthesis]

what? new york city isn't the center of the universe????
that's news to me.

[Cam42]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Oct 9 2005, 01:46 PM']what?  new york city isn't the center of the universe????
that's news to me.
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I know, but yes, we must come to accept that Yankee Stadium is not the center of the universe....

[son_of_angels]

You absolutely missed my point by the terminology I am using. What I am saying has nothing to do with the Ebionite heresy, nor a requirement to obey the Law of Moses, or anything else (except in the spiritual sense advocated especially by Paul and Augustine).

As such, I suppose I have nothing to add. I am not advocating any position different from that which is commonly believed and within the realm of Orthodoxy. I am only offering a new way to look at Catholicism, which has been described by many Hebrew Catholics as "synagogue with the Eucharist." The Mass itself is drawn from Jewish practices.

Again, though, if you wish to look at it as a completely new religion that is your prerogative, so long as it doesn't lead you to becoming a Marcionite. My perspective will not lead me into the Ebionite heresy, because it has nothing to do with the prescriptions of the Law. Indeed the Law is no longer required, but it subsists and survives in the revelation of the New. No, ancient Judaism and Christianity are not "compatible" in the way you use the term. The only Judaism is Christianity, in the same way the only Church is the Holy Catholic Church, etc. That doesn't keep Catholicism from being described by others, or even by ourselves, as a sect of Christianity.

[son_of_angels]

I thought the center of the universe was Arkansas anyway.....

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Oct 9 2005, 02:49 PM']I know, but yes, we must come to accept that Yankee Stadium is not the center of the universe....
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WHAT??? say it ain't so....

[Cam42]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Oct 9 2005, 02:01 PM']WHAT???  say it ain't so....
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I know it is hard to believe.......it is so, though.

[photosynthesis]

*sobs* i thought it was new york all along...

p.s. i went to the opus dei headquarters and it was AWESOME

[Cam42]

I have been there.....it is quite a place.

It makes me sad too....but I am ok with the idea of Rome being the center of the world/universe. At least the Catholic one.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Oct 9 2005, 04:10 PM']I have been there.....it is quite a place.

It makes me sad too....but I am ok with the idea of Rome being the center of the world/universe.  At least the Catholic one.
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i am too