Rome or Israel?

[White Knight]

Hello everyone I thought this topic would be interesting to mention of, If some who look at the Bible as a literal book front to back then one would say Israel over rome, like alot of Protestants would. However, if you look at the Bible the Catholic way there is debate about Israel and Home being the earthly home of the church.

Peter was the first pope, whom Jesus appointed as the head of His Church way back two thousand years ago. Peter first preached in Israel as well as all the other Apostles, then they evenually spread out to other nations to preach to Gospel to every living creature so the Sacred Scriptures tell us.

Toward the end of Peter's life he was in Rome at the time he preached there I'm sure, then he died there. this making it the Earthly Captial of the Roman Catholic Church.


[color=green][b]This is making me wonder though, Why is there such a special attachment to Rome in the Catholic Church and not to Israel? Just wondering.[/b][/color]

[Aloysius]

We have always had a special attachment to the Holy Land. For goodness sakes, we fought wars over the place!

But ultimately, God's amazing plan for the world all converged at the formation of His Church. The wisdom of the philosophers of ancient greece had diffused to Rome which had conquered a large portion of the world and provided roads and such for God's message to be spread. So when the most unlikely religion of the nomadic people was able to bring an empire to its knees, literally before God, it was the ultimate testimony to God's providence.

All led up to the perfect conditions for the God of Israel to save the world from their sins and spread that Good News to the farthest corners of the Earth. He prepared it so that we would take Rome, and use all of Rome's good to spread the Ultimate Good.

That is why Rome is the center. Israel may be the promised land, but Rome has been, since ancient times, the center of the world. And in the New Covenant God chose not to deal only with His One people, in the New Covenant God was to deal with the world.

[scardella]

And I thought it was the Eucharist all this time!

[Aloysius]

hardeharhar... you know we're talking about the earthly center of the instituitonal church Christ formed Obviously the Eucharist is the center and Christ is the head and all that, but Rome is the center of the world where God deigned to place the human center of His Visible Church.

[son_of_angels]

Rome is where the pope is, so that is where all the power of the Church comes from. Ultimately, though, we are a sect (indeed the only true sect) of Judaism, which comes from Israel.

Although, we really have no "home" per se, only places which are fond to us for one reason or the other. If the pope was in Florida, we could say it should be Florida, etc.

[Era Might]

Avignon! Avignon! Avignon!

:

[conservativecatholic]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Oct 7 2005, 06:34 PM']Avignon! Avignon! Avignon!

:
[right][snapback]749920[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Hahahaha. Nothing like the good ole Babylonian Captivity. One of my favorite parts of history to be taught in the public school system.

[Myles Domini]

In the words of St Ambrose:

[quote]Ubi Petrus, Ibi Ecclesia[/quote]

[Cam42]

[quote name='White Knight' date='Oct 7 2005, 03:08 PM']Hello everyone I thought this topic would be interesting to mention of, If some who look at the Bible as a literal book front to back then one would say Israel over rome, like alot of Protestants would. However, if you look at the Bible the Catholic way there is debate about Israel and Home being the earthly home of the church.

Peter was the first pope, whom Jesus appointed as the head of His Church way back two thousand years ago. Peter first preached in Israel as well as all the other Apostles, then they evenually spread out to other nations to preach to Gospel to every living creature so the Sacred Scriptures tell us.

Toward the end of Peter's life he was in Rome at the time he preached there I'm sure, then he died there. this making it the Earthly Captial of the Roman Catholic Church.
[color=green][b]This is making me wonder though, Why is there such a special attachment to Rome in the Catholic Church and not to Israel? Just wondering.[/b][/color]
[right][snapback]749668[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

First, we shouldn't look to the Bible as strictly literal, it is not a book of history. So, that puts a dubium out there right away.

Next, the reason that Rome is the earthly head, is because Rome is where the Pope is. It is where Peter settled. Peter was given control of the Church and as he moved out evangelizing the Truth, he chose Rome to base his operations. Why? Because Rome was the center of the world. Everything passed through Rome and as far as Europe is concerned I think that it still may.

I agree with Al's assessment.

[quote name='son_of_angels']Ultimately, though, we are a sect (indeed the only true sect) of Judaism, which comes from Israel.[/quote]

Absolutely incorrect. We are not a sect of Judaism. That was a pagan Roman misconception. Once Rome realized that this was not the case, the persecution of Christians began. This argument was put down in scripture. If we were ultimately a sect of Judaism, then we would have to conform to Judaic law. We don't.

While Jesus was a Jew and so were the Apostles, the Church has been universal and the message has been for all people, from the beginning. This is chronicled throughout the gospels.

[quote name='Rom 10:4']For the end of the law is Christ, unto justice to every one that believeth.[/quote]

This means that the Law was given to the Jews to excite their faith in the Christ to come.

[quote name='Gal 3:24-25']Wherefore the law was our pedagogue in Christ, that we might be justified by faith.  But after the faith is come, we are no longer under a pedagogue.[/quote]

This is the same as saying a parent will take his child to the school door.

[quote name='St. Augustine (De catechiz. rud.' date=' iv, 8)']In the Old Testament, the New lies hidden; in the New, the Old is made manifest.....[/quote]

The Christianity, then, which the Apostles preached on the day of Pentecost was entirely distinct from Judaism, especially as understood by the Jews of the time; it was a new religion, new in its Founder, new in much of its creed, new in its attitude towards both God and man, new in the spirit of its moral code.

There were metaphysical changes that took place as well, but my point is sufficently made. The Church is NOT ultimately a sect of Judaism and it is incorrect to assert that.

[conservativecatholic]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Oct 8 2005, 08:01 AM'] Peter was given control of the Church and as he moved out evangelizing the Truth, he chose Rome to base his operations. 
[right][snapback]750513[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Ditto. Couldn't be stated better.

[son_of_angels]

I agree, in terms of universality and the fact that we do not strictly keep the law, one could say that we are not a sect of Judaism. That doesn't prevent us from ACTUALLY being one. We exist based on a particular interpretation of the Torah and the Old Testament, and claim to have those Scriptures' main interpretation. As such, we are indeed a sect of Judaism, whether we like to say so or not.

Secondly, your statement, "we shouldn't look to the Bible as strictly literal" makes me wonder... WHY BELIEVE AT ALL? To leave out a literal interpretation of the Bible is to not have a complete one-along with the moral, allegorical, and anagogical interpretations thereof. If we cannot say, for sure, that Peter was literally given the Papacy of Rome, that Israel was literally chosen by God and given by him the Law, there is no faith at all. Moreover, we neither reject the Law nor the Prophets, but interpret them in light of Christ. Your statements smack of the Marcion heresy, where the OT was completely rejected.

We are the ONLY TRUE JUDAISM. That religion commonly held among the Carnal Jews is no more Jewish than the heresies held among such as the Sadducees during Jesus' day, except that, through the Law, they are witheld from many errors. We are the continuation of Judaism, not they.

[Guest JeffCR07]

I voted none of the above, and I stand by my vote. While Rome may be the heart of the Church on account of it being the Seat of Peter, the Church as the Mystical Body of Christ will never call any place on earth "home" in any meaningful sense until the Parousia and the New Earth.

I take the intent of this post to be a question concerning places, rather than persons, and for that reason, the argument [i]Ubi Petrus, Ibi Ecclesia[/i] does not force me to change my answer in the least. There is nothing intrinsic in either Rome or Isreal that makes it more or less the "home" of the Church.

[Cam42]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Oct 8 2005, 07:26 PM']I agree, in terms of universality and the fact that we do not strictly keep the law, one could say that we are not a sect of Judaism.  That doesn't prevent us from ACTUALLY being one.  We exist based on a particular interpretation of the Torah and the Old Testament, and claim to have those Scriptures' main interpretation.  As such, we are indeed a sect of Judaism, whether we like to say so or not.

Secondly, your statement, "we shouldn't look to the Bible as strictly literal" makes me wonder... WHY BELIEVE AT ALL? To leave out a literal interpretation of the Bible is to not have a complete one-along with the moral, allegorical, and anagogical interpretations thereof.  If we cannot say, for sure, that Peter was literally given the Papacy of Rome, that Israel was literally chosen by God and given by him the Law, there is no faith at all.  Moreover, we neither reject the Law nor the Prophets, but interpret them in light of Christ.  Your statements smack of the Marcion heresy, where the OT was completely rejected.

We are the ONLY TRUE JUDAISM. That religion commonly held among the Carnal Jews is no more Jewish than the heresies held among such as the Sadducees during Jesus' day, except that, through the Law, they are witheld from many errors.  We are the continuation of Judaism, not they.
[right][snapback]750900[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

To assert that we are a sect of Judaism is contrary to Catholic teaching. We are not a sect of Judaism. The closest that can be said is that Judaism is the precursor to Christianity. Subtle, but significant difference. But to assert that we are a sect of Judaism is flat wrong and is not supported in any shape by the Church or the Magisterium.

Why should we believe in Scripture at all? Faith. That is enough. Sure there are historical aspects to Scripture that are verifiable, however, it is not strict literal interpretation that allows for belief. That was the point that I was trying to make. I am sorry if it was lost on you. It was not intended to be as such.

We are not the only true Judaism. What you are asserting is the tennant of Messianic Judaism.....that is an incorrect view for a Catholic to hold. I have shown how that is the case in a previous post. I would suggest that you take some time and read up on the historical aspect of Christianity. You will see that Scripture, Tradition, and secular history all refute your your position. We can get into it if you like, but to assert that we are Judaic in any form is simply and factually incorrect.

[son_of_angels]

Here's a question, what then WOULD constitute something being a sect of Judaism?

[Cam42]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Oct 9 2005, 12:41 AM']Here's a question, what then WOULD constitute something being a sect of Judaism?
[right][snapback]751374[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Hasidic Judaism, Conservative-Reform, Essene movement, Haredi Judaism; those ideas which still employ the Jewish faith.

Christianity does not do this, and it is apparent not only in Sacred Scripture but also throughout ancient Roman writings as well as ancient Jewish writings (cf. Josephus).

I hope that answers your question.