Sex In Heaven?

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Oct 7 2005, 06:30 PM']Sort of, in the sense that it won't be exactly the same place that we live now.  Rather the world, and even the old heaven itself, will have passed away by their transformation in Christ.  (CCC 1042-1044)

Serious thought needs to be given into properly catechizing the Church on this subject.
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You haven't a clue on what the Church needs to be catechized on if you think this is 'thee subject' the faithful need help with. Most Catholics can't even figure out what the Eucharist is, some aren't even sure who the Biblical Jesus is.

I think you have sufficentily made my point as Socrates pointed out, that we do indeed have bodies in heaven. Part of being 'human' is that we have sex, male and female. To remove this part of us means that we are no longer human but something else. Intercourse is something that takes place on earth for Matrimony, you are correct, that doesn't mean maleness and femaleness will be destroyed as it is something created by God and something good. Even God Himself has a maleness, Jesus the Son is male and ascended into heaven as male, Mary, the Mother of God is female and ascended into heaven as such. Need I even mention the saints who are incorrupt?

[son_of_angels]

I will agree with this article to a point, that we may have some recollection and participation in our former gender while in heaven. This is irrelevant, though, as heaven is only a stopping point, a place for us to reside in perfect love for our Lord, awaiting the final resurrection

Nonetheless, I would need to see some evidence that, while we are in heaven after this life, we have any physical body whatsoever. Mary and Jesus, added to them Enoch and Elijah, both have physical bodies in heaven, and the former two both have the glorified bodies which we will eventually have when our flesh is re-animated (CCC 990) "The term 'flesh' refers to man in his state of weakness and mortality. The 'resurrection of the flesh' (the literal formulation of the Apostles' Creed) means not only that the immortal soul will live on affter death, but that even our 'mortal body' will come to life again."

The reason that Catholics need to be catechized on this and other matters, like the Eucharist is stated in the next article (CCC 991) as well as in the heading (988). "The Christian Creed...culminates in the proclamation of the resurrection of the dead on the last day and in life everlasting." We MUST, like the believers of old, live in anticipation of resurrection, even before we anticipate death, and labor to find in the New Jerusalem, which finds its type in the Virgin Mary, our Homeland in Christ. True, we must long for the special "beatific vision" which awaits the saints, but this will come for all people, whether the return of Christ is sooner or later.

I, again, will agree that, in as far as we are defined by our gender, we ourselves shall maintain it as we maintain our identity, but this has little to do with our earthly gender or sex in the way we define it, not just by genitals but by particular passions, etc. But we DO NOT, from Church teaching, have bodies in heaven.

[son_of_angels]

When we rise, though, we will certainly have our same gender.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Oct 8 2005, 10:29 AM']I, again, will agree that, in as far as we are defined by our gender, we ourselves shall maintain it as we maintain our identity, but this has little to do with our earthly gender or sex in the way we define it, not just by genitals but by particular passions, etc. But we DO NOT, from Church teaching, have bodies in heaven.
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Our bodies will be ressurrected.

[Brother Adam]

, [quote]again, will agree that, in as far as we are defined by our gender, we ourselves shall maintain it as we maintain our identity, but this has little to do with our earthly gender or sex in the way we define it, not just by genitals but by particular passions, etc. But we DO NOT, from Church teaching, have bodies in heaven.[/quote]

The soul does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with teh body at the final ressurection" - CCC 366, Pius XII, Mumani Generis; Lateran Council V.

The resurrection of the body is a basic tenant of the Catholic faith and is found in the Creed. Human beings are so because we are body and soul united. The body apart from the soul is unnatrual. Why do you think we find something wrong about the concept of ghosts and corpses? They are body and soul divided. In heaven, where there is a perfection of all creation, there will be the perfection of humans as well, who are unlike angels who have no body, and as such we will have body and soul in heaven. There would be no point in a 'heavenly jerusalem" without bodies, and if we have no bodies in heaven then our bodies are something that entrap us, a heresy of the early church, that must be escaped.

As I mentioned, Christ in the New Heaven and New earth is perfected "body and soul" Mary, Moses, and Elijah are all in heaven, and all are bodily. (LG 631, CCC 1042, Rev 21:4)

And if all that isn't enough Romans 8:19-23 talks about the final destination of the material cosmos and man (CCC 1046)

[son_of_angels]

You are speaking worthlessly. Absolutely, we will have body and soul after the resurrection of the dead, which will come at the last day. This is catholic doctrine. In the "heaven" we often think about, that is the place we go directly after our particular judgment, we exist only as soul, and yet this, indeed, is not the way we are meant to exist. We are meant to exist body and soul together, and we will, after on the "last day." This will not be in the same heaven as where we go when we die, but rather in the new universe created at the end of the Last Days.


Put it this way, when you die, your soul is the only thing which survives death, and your body rots and decays. You then go and face the "particular judgment" and, if you are found worthy, go and exist in the presence and perfection of being with the Trinity in heaven. You go there until the last day, when that soul, being now in a perfect relationship with God, is reunited with the body, which is glorified by its re-union with a perfect and holy soul. The old heaven and old earth will pass away, but, body and soul, we will live in the New Jerusalem, which is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from the Heaven after the Particular Judgment, on the perfected earth.

[son_of_angels]

Moreover, I never suggested that the body "entraps" the soul, it is its completion. It is unheard of to me that catholicism has any problem with "corpses" as we have many of them in and under our altars. We venerate them calling to mind their future resurrection.

[Brother Adam]

First, there is no reason to be offensive, second, some are in heaven now, perfected and united body and soul. Third no distinction was previously made between heaven now and the New Heaven and Holy City regarding gender in heaven, so get off your high horse. Finally, I'd suggest reading up on the subject before getting too preachy. Regis Martin's "Last Things" gives a good overview on the subject.
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[theculturewarrior]

i find the very question disturbing. Who will we be having sex with, the Angels and Saints?! What is the logical conclusion of Kreeft's essay? If I were to buy that, I could never look at the Mother of God the same way! The Church doesn't need a sexual revolution!

No, we neither marry nor are given in marriage.This is disgusting. Don't contaminate the wells, Mr. Kreeft!

[Era Might]

Marriage and conjugal union are essentially related to the generation of children. The spouses give themselves over to someone greater than themselves, namely, their spouse and the child that results.

While marriage and conjugal relations cannot be REDUCED to the generation of children, they also cannot be severed from it. As TCW says, in the Kingdom, we will neither marry nor be given in marriage. Why is this so? Because there is no need to generate. God's creation has been fulfilled.

The image of the family, and the image of the marital act, is fulfilled in the Holy Trinity, to whom we are bound for all eternity.

Edited October 9, 2005 by Era Might

[Cow of Shame]

A good answer from the Mighty Era ( may he keep all my clothing clean & smelling like spring time breezes)

Edited October 9, 2005 by Cow of Shame

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Oct 8 2005, 09:01 PM']Marriage and conjugal union are essentially related to the generation of children. The spouses give themselves over to someone greater than themselves, namely, their spouse and the child that results.

While marriage and conjugal relations cannot be REDUCED to the generation of children, they also cannot be severed from it. As TCW says, in the Kingdom, we will neither marry nor be given in marriage. Why is this so? Because there is no need to generate. God's creation has been fulfilled.

The image of the family, and the image of the marital act, is fulfilled in the Holy Trinity, to whom we are bound for all eternity.
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Right, the question has now come down to in the last dozen responses of if humans will finally retain a body and a soul, or will be like the angels and have no body. And if they retain bodies, will there be maleness and femaleness, or no gender. Cmom and myself agreed that there will be bodies, and female and maleness will be retained, but not in the sense that there will be sexual intercourse. To deny this is to say that Christ himself will lose His incarnate form, which we know is not true, or to say that Mary will lose her body, assumed into heaven (or Elijah) and will no longer be the queen of heaven.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Oct 9 2005, 09:55 AM']Right, the question has now come down to in the last dozen responses of if humans will finally retain a body and a soul, or will be like the angels and have no body. And if they retain bodies, will there be maleness and femaleness, or no gender. Cmom and myself agreed that there will be bodies, and female and maleness will be retained, but not in the sense that there will be sexual intercourse. To deny this is to say that Christ himself will lose His incarnate form, which we know is not true, or to say that Mary will lose her body, assumed into heaven (or Elijah) and will no longer be the queen of heaven.
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Certainly. Although, our mode of existence, while truly corporal, will transcend our earthly state; what St. Paul would call a "spiritual body".

I didn't take son_of_angels as saying we wouldn't have bodies, just that we wouldn't receive them until the final judgement, as opposed to the "interregnum". Did I miss something?

Edited October 9, 2005 by Era Might

[jasJis]

theculturewarrior, Era, and sons,
DID YOU READ THE ARTICLE? What do you know abut Peter Kreeft? Come on. Grow up a little and read the article, then we can discuss it intelligently. For a hint, Peter is an Orthodox Cathololic Christian Philosopher.

[Era Might]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Oct 9 2005, 12:29 PM']theculturewarrior, Era, and sons,
DID YOU READ THE ARTICLE?  What do you know abut Peter Kreeft?  Come on.  Grow up a little and read the article, then we can discuss it intelligently.  For a hint, Peter is an Orthodox Cathololic Christian Philosopher.
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Did I suggest otherwise?

Just because Peter Kreef is orthodox doesn't mean he can't be wrong.

And for the record, Peter Kreeft is one of my favorite authors.