A Universal Indult...!?

[conservativecatholic]

Cambridge historian Eamonn Duffy believes that Pope Benedict will grant a universal indult for the celebration of the Tridentine-rite Mass. He predicts that this policy-change would take place in October, during the meeting of the Synod of Bishops.

Please pray for the Synod!

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Edited October 2, 2005 by conservativecatholic

[son_of_angels]

I'll pray for the Synod. I'll pray for greater availability of the Tridentine Mass, but not for a universal indult which could ruin the integrity of the rite itself. I don't want a good thing to become a cause for more division and abuse.

[Era Might]

I agree that a universal indult could be disastrous. Duffy's suggestion seems to be based on his own personal wishes, rather than any inside knowledge. Pope Benedict has argued in the past for a clear limitation on the indult:

[quote]If it would foster devotion in many believers and encourage respect for the piety of particular Catholic groups, I would personally support a return to the ancient situation, i.e., to a certain Liturgical pluralism. Provided, of course, that the legitimate character of the reformed rites was emphatically affirmed, [b]and that there was a clear delineation of the extent and nature of such an exception permitting the celebration of the pre-conciliar liturgy[/b].

--"The Ratzinger Report" pgs. 124-125[/quote]

Edited October 2, 2005 by Era Might

[conservativecatholic]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Oct 2 2005, 01:48 PM']I'll pray for the Synod.  I'll pray for greater availability of the Tridentine Mass, but not for a universal indult which could ruin the integrity of the rite itself.  I don't want a good thing to become a cause for more division and abuse.
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[/quote]

How may I ask could a universal indult ruin the integrity of the rite? The rite, though flourishing today compared to 20 years ago, is suffering because it is supressed by local bishops. My bishop for instance, Joseph Firoenza, permits 1 Latin Mass to be celebrated in the entire Archdiocese of 1.2 million Catholics! That is ridiculous and absurd.

Granting merely "more availability"of the Tridentine Mass will do nothing more than what is going on now. Bishops would drastically increase the availability of the Latin Mass to 2 Latin Masses instead of 1 in their diocese. Wow... some availability! That is why a universal indult is necessary.

May God Bless!

+Brent

Edited October 2, 2005 by conservativecatholic

[Era Might]

The Missal of Pius V is not the normative missal for the Church. Giving Priests an unlimited right to celebrate it as they see fit would be an injustice to all those Catholics who desire the normative Mass of the Church. It is akin to a bi-ritual Priest offering an Eastern Liturgy whenever he wanted to. It's ok for him to offer it on a limited basis, when it is clearly scheduled for a particular group, but Latin Catholics want to attend the Mass of the Roman Rite. In the same way, most Latin Catholics want to worship according to the reformed rites of Paul VI, which is the normative Mass to which they have a right.

Edited October 2, 2005 by Era Might

[conservativecatholic]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Oct 2 2005, 02:09 PM']Giving Priests an unlimited right to celebrate it as they see fit would be an injustice to all those Catholics who desire the normative Mass of the Church.
[/quote]

Something is deeply wrong when one associates the Tridentine Mass with an injustice. It is wrong for priests to celebrate the Mass of Paul VI in an abusive and disgusting manner as seen in a large number of Catholic parishes. It is wrong for preists to shove liturgical dancing as well as guitars and drums down parishoners throats when countless people despise such things. So tell me...why is it OK for abusive contemporary liturgists to dominate? Is it not OK for a priest to conduct Mass in Latin? The fact at hand is that people who yearn for Church tradition are [u][b]not[/b][/u] represented in today's Church.

That is an injustice.

Edited October 2, 2005 by conservativecatholic

[Era Might]

[quote name='conservativecatholic' date='Oct 2 2005, 04:32 PM']Swift and effective reform is necessary.
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[/quote]

You don't punish the sheep for wayward sheperds. If there is a problem with Priests celebrating Mass, then address them. You don't deny Catholics the normative Mass of their rite.

[conservativecatholic]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Oct 2 2005, 03:36 PM']You don't punish the sheep for wayward sheperds. If there is a problem with Priests celebrating Mass, then address them. You don't deny Catholics the normative Mass of their rite.
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[/quote]

How is a universal indult denying Catholics the normative Mass?

A universal indult in no way replaces the post-Vatican II Mass with the Tridentine Liturgy.

It merely offers a Mass to the [u]millions[/u] who have been utterly forgotten in the last 4 decades.

[Era Might]

[quote]How is a universal indult denying Catholics the normative Mass?[/quote]

If a Priest has an unlimited right to offer the Tridentine Mass, he can offer it whenever he wants. So, if he feels like offering it every day he celebrates Daily Mass, the parish has to be a part of it.

This is why the indult is left to the prudence of the local Bishop. He must ensure that an exception (ie, the celebration of an older form of the Roman Rite) does not become the rule.

Don't get me wrong. I agree with John Paul II that the indult should be applied generously. But it must be regulated, and specifically scheduled for those who want to attend. You can't just allow a Priest to foist a Liturgy on the people that is not theirs. Catholics have a right to worship according to their specific rite.

Edited October 2, 2005 by Era Might

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='conservativecatholic' date='Oct 2 2005, 04:44 PM']How is a universal indult denying Catholics the normative Mass?
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Because a great many priests would begin celebrating the Tridentine Mass to such an extent that certain areas would have no Masses of the Novus Ordo.

Clear limits must be put into place so that people may go to whichever rite they feel called to, since both would be allowed, and not that they are forced to go to one or the other solely because of what the priests want.

[conservativecatholic]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Oct 2 2005, 03:54 PM']If a Priest has an unlimited right to offer the Tridentine Mass, he can offer it whenever he wants. So, if he feels like offering it every day he celebrates Daily Mass, the parish has to be a part of it.

This is why the indult is left to the prudence of the local Bishop. He must ensure that an exception (ie, the celebration of an older form of the Roman Rite) does not become the rule.

Don't get me wrong. I agree with John Paul II that the indult should be applied generously. But it must be regulated, and specifically scheduled for those who want to attend. You can't just allow a Priest to foist a Liturgy on the people that is not theirs. Catholics have a right to worship according to their specific rite.
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[/quote]

I totally understand your point. However, if "more availability" of the Tridentine Mass is granted rather than a universal indult, then what is the definition of "more availability"? America's bishops have done a deplorable job adhering to John Paul's request that the Latin Mass be "more available." The problem today is that the litrugucal norms are too broad and fuzzy and are consequently horribly interpreted by local bishops.

The bottom line is that if people want to see a [b]visible[/b] change, a universal indult is the [u]only[/u] option.

Edited October 2, 2005 by conservativecatholic

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='conservativecatholic' date='Oct 2 2005, 05:03 PM']I totally understand your point; however, if a universal indult is not established, but a request for "more availability of the Tridentine Mass" is, then what is the definition of more availability? America's bishops have done a deplorable job adhering to John Paul's request that the Latin Mass be "more available."  The problem today is that the litrugucal norms are too broad and fuzzy and are consequently horribly interpreted by local bishops.

The bottom line is that if people want to see a [b]visible[/b] change, a universal indult is the [u]only[/u] option.
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[/quote]
Before Quo Primum, there were many liturgical abuses with many bishops who all had different ideas of what the liturgical norms were. Then Quo Primum came out and said, "this is the form of the Mass" and it stopped.

What we need is something like Quo Primum for the Novus Ordo...something where the pope goes through and says, "this and not this, this and not this," definitively. That is the only option to fixing the abuses to the Novus Ordo Mass. Granting a Universal Indult will not fix any abuses of the Novus Ordo, because it has nothing to do with the Novus Ordo.

[conservativecatholic]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Oct 2 2005, 04:11 PM']Before Quo Primum, there were many liturgical abuses with many bishops who all had different ideas of what the liturgical norms were.  Then Quo Primum came out and said, "this is the form of the Mass" and it stopped.

What we need is something like Quo Primum for the Novus Ordo...something where the pope goes through and says, "this and not this, this and not this," definitively.  That is the only option to fixing the abuses to the Novus Ordo Mass.  Granting a Universal Indult will not fix any abuses of the Novus Ordo, because it has nothing to do with the Novus Ordo.
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[/quote]

I absolutely agree! The Vatican must be black and white when establishing the liturgical norms of the missa normativa.

By the way, I think you may have gotten slightly confused when reading my post. I never said that a universal indult would fix abuses within the Mass of Paul VI.

I was simply referring to a visible change in regards to the Latin Mass itself, not the missa normativa.

May God Bless!

+Brent

Edited October 2, 2005 by conservativecatholic

[MC Just]

i cant even believe people are against the idea!!

Latin is the Language of the church not english, spanish, french.etc.. Its better than having all these liberal liturgical abuse masses.

[Era Might]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Oct 2 2005, 06:11 PM']i cant even believe people are against the idea!!

Latin is the Language of the church not english, spanish, french.etc.. Its better than having all these liberal liturgical abuse masses.
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The Tridentine Mass is not synonomous with the Latin Mass (ie, the Latin Rite). The Latin Mass can be celebrated in Latin or in the vernacular. The Tridentine Mass is an entirely separate Missal, rather than a Pauline Liturgy in Latin.

Edited October 2, 2005 by Era Might