the jews and decide

[Ora et Labora]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Oct 3 2005, 07:38 PM']What is the point of this thread?  Nowhere in the gospels does Christ curse the Jewish people.  (And let us not forget, Christ, the holy family and all the original Apostles, were all Jews.)
You give the (not infallible) opinons of various saints, yet ignore the words of St. Paul in Sacred Scripture, and the words of a Church council, which you decrye as heretical because it contradicts your own opinions (or rather the opinons of certain "Rad-trad" firebrands yoy've been reading).

And would would the point be for us if Jews were cursed?  Jews are called to accept Christ as are all people, and should not be treated different than other non-Christians.  (We should try to evangelize them, which will not be accomplished by running around calling them a "cursed race.")

It seems that all this is is simply another desperate "Trad" attempt to prove the current Catholic Church heretical or apostate.  And that's a lot of bull-hockey.
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I dont think that is what Sam had in mind, Socrates. And like Sam said, we led off to his original point.

[Ora et Labora]

I'm not answering though, because for a while I've wanted to know about the Jews as well!

And I think the Jewdism religion today is the same as in the Old Covanent. (I'm sorry if spelling smells of elderberries.) Is that what you were asking, Sam?

In Christ,
Kristina

[littlebits]

[quote name='Ora et Labora' date='Oct 9 2005, 07:36 PM']I dont think that is what Sam had in mind, Socrates. And like Sam said, we led off to his original point.
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A long time has passed in the history of these our beings..I do believe that as curses go.as through one man came death..ie the curse of Adam who through Eve was tempted to eat she being tempted by the serpent..to disobedience..and thus their curse that death entered..
So through one man came life..Christ they speak of as the new Adam through whose shed blood we can be forgiven.
Still and all for me there are endless questions as to ..why then does God dump His garbage on the earth..Or seperate Adam Eve and serpent from their habitat..and how can we not but wonder how long did they work..to tend and decorate the garden..and food a reward? Before crying out for death?
Or why do hurricanes and tornadoes always strike trailer camps? Does God hate the poor?
Because there is a new teaching..a saviour..that still doesn't answer for
why if on a map there is this small portion of land called Israel..and those neighbouring lands are huge by comparison why is it always being accused of Greed. Personally I don't like these schizoid existences as through our good Bible names....and if you aren't aware of the way that they see us as dirty.. but always get there for the paydirt..long time..to not question..
Logic says..that point A is a given in all it's possibilities..Point A is a given..we then set forth to point B..Point B is sequential..however it is predertimed by the interval. Now not liking Point B as we see these prophecies or visions..the only way to change Point B as sequential..is to change the interval..so as carefully as my Aunt and uncle and their 5 boys worked to garden down a very large slope..that would remain flooded according to the interval..was to change the direction of the furrows..cross cultivation.
My people die for lack of knowledge..our hopes died long ago..the labourers who worked in your fields have not been paid...so in Christ..the fulfillment of the law and the prophets..as Israel sees the world as a playground.
I don't even know my own culture..all I know isit looks like cowardice..and
why..Is Jerusalem that death star collision of prehistory?
Is there any logic to religion at all?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Ora et Labora' date='Oct 9 2005, 06:39 PM']I'm not answering though, because for a while I've wanted to know about the Jews as well!

And I think the Jewdism religion today is the same as in the Old Covanent. (I'm sorry if spelling smells of elderberries.) Is that what you were asking, Sam?

In Christ,
Kristina
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from what i understand the old covenant is over. im asking
is the relegion differente fundementally than it was in the OT.

heres my idea:

[quote]When the temple was destroyed, the Jewish religion as it was known then was effectively ended. Around 90 A.D., there was a Jewish school of Rabbis, convened under the auspices of the Flavian Roman emperors, which is known today as the "Council of Jamnia." Their significant task was to do two things. A) Reform the Jewish religion so that it could operate without the Temple and the sacrifices therein, and B) Circle the wagons to deal with this new "Christianity." This council was significant for us in two ways. First, it commissioned a new translation of the Hebrew scriptures, throwing out the old Septuagint, which had been the "official" version for hundreds of years, because it was the version Christians were using to evangelize. Also, related to the scriptures, various old testament books which we call the Deutero-Canonicals were thrown out, and the Maccabees were thrown out, because the latter had examples of Jewish Revolt, and the council, convened with the aid of the Romans, did not wish to do anything that could incite Jews to rebellion, particularly after the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. Secondly, this Jewish council condemned Christianity,  making the religion more anti-Christian than Jewish, per se.



This is how we can definitely say that Judaism, with it's veneration of the Talmud, that exists today is NOT the same religion as that practiced  by Old Testament Jews. [/quote]

many jews do not believe in hell the idea of a messiah or even an after life anymore.

[Thumper]

While I'm certainly not a scholar of either ancient or modern Judaism, my question would be what constitutes the core of the Jewish faith. Certainly the Temple is extremely imporant. However, during the Babylonian captivity the Jewish people continued in faith without access to the Temple. So the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD definitely had a major impact on Judaism, but I'm not sure that it changed their faith in an essential manner so as to create a disconnect.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

what about the changing of the bible and the fact that the jews don't believe in the messiah or hell anymore?

[avemaria40]

My Jewish friends have told me that they do believe in a Heaven and a Purgatory, but not Hell.

[Dave]

I'm gonna hijack this thread a little bit because Sam described Vatican II as "fallible." It's not! It's infallible, and if you wish to call yourself Catholic, you have to assent to its teachings and obey them.

[Thumper]

Changing of the Bible: This is from "Bible: Old Testament" in The New Dictionary of Theology: "Even though the rabbis attempted to settle the issue of canonicity after AD 70 at their school in Jamnia, west of Jersusalem, Sirach was still read for several centuries and is referred to in the Talmud as sacred; other books remained controversial, like Ezekiel, Canticles and Ecclesiastes. This variation in the number of sacred books did not touch the doctrinal essence of Judaism, for the latter depended basically upon the Torah, which in the Septuagint as in all Hebrew manuscripts remained the most holy of all." So the Torah was essential; other books, however, were still in the process of being recognized as canonical--Christians would also go through a process of determining canonicity.

Hell: it is my impression that the Jewish idea of what happens following death is not as clear cut as those of Christianity. There is an indication of life after death, but this does not always seem to be connected to a judgment about righteousness or wickedness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol). The Christian notion of Hell may be tied more to the term "Gehenna," which is taken up by the New Testament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna). So, before we can ask, "Do the Jewish people still believe in Hell?" we need to first know whether 1) the Jewish people ever believed in Hell as we understand it in Christianity and 2) what in fact the Jewish people did then and do now believe about an afterlife. [As a side note, I imagine that just as some Christians may deny the possibility of Hell, so some Jews might deny the possibility of an afterlife, etc., but that such denials may not represent the tradition as a whole.]

Messiah: I am unsure about current Jewish belief in this area; however, this site lists a number of messianic figures who have arisen in the Jewish tradition, indicating that at least some still have messianic expectations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah). Even at the time of Jesus, there were divergent views on who the Messiah would be and what precisely he would do. This link also has information on the afterlife and messianic expectations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah).

Sorry for the heavy use of Wikipedia, but I tried to look over the information with a theologian's eye, and it seemed well-balanced.

Edited October 11, 2005 by Thumper