the jews and decide

[Era Might]

Am I supposed to be confounded by your quotes?

The anti-Jewish thought that extends throughout Christian history is no secret. There's a reason the Second Vatican Council formally disavowed the "theology of contempt" as it is known.

None of your citations are formal doctrinal propositions. Nostra Aetate, on the other hand, is a document of an Ecumenical Council.

This disavowal began even before the Council. Pope Pius XI was vehement in his condemnation of anti-semitism:

[quote]Mark well that in the Catholic Mass, Abraham is our Patriarch and forefather. Anti-Semitism is incompatible with the lofty thought which that fact expresses. It is a movement with which we Christians can have nothing to do. No, no, I say to you it is impossible for a Christian to take part in anti-Semitism. It is inadmissible. Through Christ and in Christ we are the spiritual progeny of Abraham. Spiritually, we are all Semites."[/quote]

Receiving a group of Roman Jews after the war, Pope Pius XII was even more affectionate toward the people of Israel:

[quote]I am only the Vicar of Christ, but you are his very kith and kin[/quote]

Don't go down the radical "traditionalist" anti-semitism road, EENS. Just don't do it. It will smell of elderberries you dry.

Edited October 2, 2005 by Era Might

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

what about the biblical quote i think that it holds up better than a pronouncment by a fallibile counsel.

and believe me i am not anti-semetic.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Oct 2 2005, 07:28 PM']what about the biblical quote i think that it holds up better than a pronouncment by a fallibile counsel.

and believe me i am not anti-semetic.
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Ok, on the one hand, we have your private interpretation of a Bible verse.

On the other hand, we have the interpretation of an Ecumenical Council.

Gee, I wonder who speaks for Christ...

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

hmm lets see
here

we have 2,000 years of christian traditon and a bible verse that was interpreted to mean the jews were cursed pre vatican II

and then we have a modernistic fallibile council

and after the council the traditon is gone
the bible verse "Means something different"


so lets pretend that the bible verse would be interpreted to say that the jews are cursed

Obviously the saints interpreted the quote to mean that
they all thought the jews were cursed.

now after 1965 they are not?

sounds a little phishy to me....

[Era Might]

[quote]sounds a little phishy to me....[/quote]

Of course it does. That's why you're in the phishy group. :

You post 10 or so quotes, which you probably just ripped off some radical "traditionalist" site, and based on these quotes, you decide that you are above an Ecumenical Council and the Bishop of Rome. You make yourself, in effect, the arbiter of Tradition and Catholic doctrine. While possessing no theological (or even a college) education, you're somehow competent to fill this post.

I know it's hard to believe that 2,000 Bishops assembled in an Ecumenical Council might, just might, know a little more about Catholic doctrine than you. But they do.

You're better than this, EENS. Why do you insist on teaching the Magisterium, rather than learning from her?

Edited October 3, 2005 by Era Might

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

once agian you refuse to look at the fract that the saints' quotes i listed.

they all seem to interpret the bible verse in that way.

tell me what does the "modern" catholic church interpret it to mean?

you think any of these saints had a college education.

when you look at the council their seem to be some other heretical things taught in it that go agianst prior infallibile teaching.

[Thumper]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Oct 3 2005, 07:28 PM']once agian you refuse to look at the fract that the saints' quotes i listed.

they all seem to interpret the bible verse in that way.

tell me what does the "modern" catholic church interpret it to mean?

you think any of these saints had a college education.

when you look at the council their seem to be some other heretical things taught in it that go agianst prior infallibile teaching.
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The "modern" Roman Catholic Church understands that people live within an historical context, and that even the Church Fathers and saints of the Church were not omniscient or perfect. Here's an article from First Things, hardly a liberal rag, that may help to give you some context, click on "The Jews as the Christians Saw Them" at [url="http://www.firstthings.com/menus/ft9705.html"]http://www.firstthings.com/menus/ft9705.html[/url]

It also understands Scripture as the inspired word of God, but knows that inspiration does not preclude the fact that God's word is not dictated directly, but is transmitted through human minds, that thus the context and intention of the human author is important, and exegesis must take those factors into account. Here's a link to Dei Verbum from that darn Vatican II: [url="http://www.rc.net/rcchurch/vatican2/dei.ver"]http://www.rc.net/rcchurch/vatican2/dei.ver[/url]. See especially Chapter III.

Edited October 4, 2005 by Thumper

[Socrates]

What is the point of this thread? Nowhere in the gospels does Christ curse the Jewish people. (And let us not forget, Christ, the holy family and all the original Apostles, were all Jews.)
You give the (not infallible) opinons of various saints, yet ignore the words of St. Paul in Sacred Scripture, and the words of a Church council, which you decrye as heretical because it contradicts your own opinions (or rather the opinons of certain "Rad-trad" firebrands yoy've been reading).

And would would the point be for us if Jews were cursed? Jews are called to accept Christ as are all people, and should not be treated different than other non-Christians. (We should try to evangelize them, which will not be accomplished by running around calling them a "cursed race.")

It seems that all this is is simply another desperate "Trad" attempt to prove the current Catholic Church heretical or apostate. And that's a lot of bull-hockey.

Edited October 4, 2005 by Socrates

[Thumper]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Oct 3 2005, 08:38 PM'][snip]
And that's a lot of bull-hockey.
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Ah, bull-hockey! One of my favorite sports. I'm so glad they're not on strike again this year . . . .

[littlebits]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Oct 2 2005, 10:26 AM']ok next question:

are the Jewish people cursed because of the death of christ?

the bible and numerous saints have the answer to this question.

does anyone want to take a crack at it?
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[littlebits]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Oct 2 2005, 10:26 AM']ok next question:

are the Jewish people cursed because of the death of christ?

the bible and numerous saints have the answer to this question.

does anyone want to take a crack at it?
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Perhaps this is helpful...What image of God are we?..are we kind generous..or is this a long history..of human sacrifice in all it's variations..directly as offerings of blood to the sun god..slavery ..a cruel and abusive totalitarian ..extremes..that hide behind order as we find new ways to bump off the competition without getting caught?
Are we obsessive..stoning burning cursing others for sexual sins as though a serial killer is a better choice for forgiveness...release Barrabus..is that our cry? Are we cowards that refuse to play on a level playing field..justify cruel and perverse child molestation..and gang rapes..murders..do we practice the ways of death as to imprison and mutilate all other creatures ...WHAT IMAGE OF GOD ARE WE?
Have you ever just been stuck..nailed and imprisoned to a place as truly as Jesus was nailed and enslaved to that wooden cross..and crying out ..Why hast thou forsaken me..money and love for the children or a brother.. the nails so real..stuck..so unable to to end the pain of being so unloved...so unwelcome..and seeing the end of these days..and this schizoid existence of our good Bible names..and like a meatball..stuck because your language your culture and your name have been torn away by those who never ask..What image of God are we? Are we not all cursed? It has been said that there was a terrible complaint throughout all creation..re some killer rabbitts on the loose..wherever they went they killed maimed and mutilated the creatures..as profiteering scientists..so God made the earth...it's a hole lined with stones..and a sign that says the neighbours house..the killer rabbitts jumped right in...and they so it is not their pain..and do you take your children for a tour of the slaughter house? Are we that image..that turns away..because it's not our pain..or can we look straight into the eyes of the Christ we crucified..all have sinned..and say you don't understand..
What image of God are we?

[Cow of Shame]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Sep 29 2005, 09:18 PM']
now it also says that ALL are not responsibile at the time of christ meaning (obviously) some are.
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IF [b]all[/b] are not responsible, THEN [b]some[/b] must be responsible

is not a logical statement. By [i]your[/i] initial 'logic',, you could just as equally say

IF [b]all[/b] are not responsible, THEN [b]none[/b] must be responsible

[littlebits]

[quote name='Cow of Shame' date='Oct 7 2005, 12:43 PM']IF [b]all[/b] are not responsible, THEN [b]some[/b] must be responsible

is not a logical statement.  By [i]your[/i] initial 'logic',, you could just as equally say

IF [b]all[/b] are not responsible, THEN [b]none[/b] must be responsible
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In reply..although my quote may be a bit inexact Jesus said noone takes my life from me..I lay it down for my friends.
Another story I have seen on a website re Christian humour..
A man of God had set an empty bird cage on the pulpit..and began to say to the congregation..why do you think I have this empty old bird cage here?
He proceeded..this morning on my way to church..walking toward me on this dirt road was a child about 9 or ten. He was carrying this cage with 2 small birds in it.
I said to the boy what are you going to do with those birds..he said..I'm going to pull all their feathers out and hurt them in a scientific experiment
and then I'm going to feed them to my cat. My cat likes playing with them.
I said to the boy said he..can I have them? The boy said why would you want them?..they're nothing but dirty old field birds.
So I said I'll give you ten dollars for them. The boy gave me these birds and that cage.
Then I gave the birds some water and comforted them..and then I set them free. That is why this old cage is empty.
So it has been said that one day the Lord Jesus was walking along a road..and he saw Satan walking towards him. In his hand he had a cage full of people. He asked Satan what he was going to do with them..Satan replied..I'm going to use them for scientific experiments..and murder some of them..and torture others.
The Lord replied .. What could I give you for them?

Satan replied..your blood and your water and your life.
And so the Lord purchased them..that is why this cage is empty today.
With these words said..the man of god picked up the cage and walked away.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

this is great and all but it dosen't have anything to do with the Jewish People.

next question the jewish relegion is it the same relegion or a different relegion than the old Testament Relegion of Judiasim?

Dominus Vobiscum,

sam

[Cow of Shame]

[quote name='littlebits' date='Oct 9 2005, 01:12 PM']In reply..although my quote may be a bit inexact  Jesus said noone takes my life from me..I lay it down for my friends.
(etc etc)
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And what exactly did all that have to do with an argument about logic?

I was pointing out the flaw in the original argument, based on nothing but if/then statements. I was not saying anything about religious beliefs. How about:

He said the equivalent of:

IF not [b]all[/b] my marbles are blue, THEN [b]some[/b] must be blue.

I say that this is equally true:

IF not [b]all[/b] my marbles are blue, THEN [b]none[/b] must be blue (they could all be red).

It leaves open the possibility that some Jews are responsible, but it doesn't imply that more than zero Jews are responsible.