authenticity of the papacy

[infinitelord1]

when can we say the papacy began? Please provide historical reference.

[Aloysius]

The Papacy began in about AD 30 with Pope St. Peter. Its described in the Gospel According to St. Matthew, oldest known greek manuscripts dating to second century but tradition has it that it was originally written in aramaic in the early first century. It describes Peter as a rock who is revealed things about Christ's nature from the Father Himself, lists him first among the apostles, and says he was given keys of authority in the kingdom being built on earth.

[Aloysius]

Tradition holds that one of the few wealthy romans who sympathized with the Christian cause donated his house to St. Peter. This was, in effect, the first Papal Palace. An old roman house that seems to have been converted into a Christian palace with references to Peter was found in Rome giving no reason for us to suspect this tradition doesn't hold water. Thus, Peter lived in a papal palace in Rome and left this palace to Linus.

A very ancient tradition holds that St. Peter carried around important church documents in a basket. We see from books like Acts of the Apostles that there were baptismal records ("and 300 were added that day" et cetera) and St. Peter likely kept records of such things. The story of his successors in Rome was thus kept in this ancient vatican archive of sorts in the underground church in the first few centuries. When the Church emerged from its underground status, the list of his successor bishops of Rome emerged as well. Little is known of them except they were most all martyrs. They held authority over the Roman See and it is likely that they were looked to by other Christians around the rest of the Christian world for answers to confirm them in the faith as Peter had always done, but there is no record because all such dealings were secret and underground for fear of persecution.

[Aloysius]

Those early underground popes go something like this:
St. Peter (32-67)
St. Linus (67-76)
St. Anacletus (76-88)
St. Clement I (88-97)
St. Evaristus (97-105)
St. Alexander I (105-115)
St. Sixtus I (115-125)
St. Telesphorus (125-136)
St. Hyginus (136-140)
St. Pius I (140-155)
St. Anicetus (155-166)
St. Soter (166-175)
St. Eleutherius (175-189)
St. Victor I (189-199)
St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
St. Callistus I (217-22)
St. Urban I (222-30)
St. Pontain (230-35)
St. Anterus (235-36)
St. Fabian (236-50)
St. Cornelius (251-53)
St. Lucius I (253-54)
St. Stephen I (254-257)
St. Sixtus II (257-258)
St. Dionysius (260-268)
St. Felix I (269-274)
St. Eutychian (275-283)
St. Caius (283-296)
St. Marcellinus (296-304)
St. Marcellus I (308-309)
St. Eusebius (309 or 310)
St. Miltiades (311-14)

And that's about all we know about them, because that's all that survived through the time of persecution: a list.

It is said that St. Peter himself consecrated mass with the same cup Jesus used at the last supper and that he left this chalice with his successors up until the time when it was sent to Spain by St. Lawrence to avoid losing it to one of the sacks on rome.

In Valencia, Spain, there is a cup that is found to be made of the same type of agate stone that was used at that time to make cups, and it dates all the way back to the time of Christ.

[jezic]

wouldn't the papacy actually begin with Christ?

(i am not sure)

but if not, why not?

[dspen2005]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Sep 29 2005, 10:14 PM']Those early underground popes go something like this:
St. Peter (32-67)
St. Linus (67-76)
St. Anacletus (76-88)
St. Clement I (88-97)
St. Evaristus (97-105)
St. Alexander I (105-115)
St. Sixtus I (115-125)
St. Telesphorus (125-136)
St. Hyginus (136-140)
St. Pius I (140-155)
St. Anicetus (155-166)
St. Soter (166-175)
St. Eleutherius (175-189)
St. Victor I (189-199)
St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
St. Callistus I (217-22)
St. Urban I (222-30)
St. Pontain (230-35)
St. Anterus (235-36)
St. Fabian (236-50)
St. Cornelius (251-53)
St. Lucius I (253-54)
St. Stephen I (254-257)
St. Sixtus II (257-258)
St. Dionysius (260-268)
St. Felix I (269-274)
St. Eutychian (275-283)
St. Caius (283-296)
St. Marcellinus (296-304)
St. Marcellus I (308-309)
St. Eusebius (309 or 310)
St. Miltiades (311-14)

And that's about all we know about them, because that's all that survived through the time of persecution: a list.

It is said that St. Peter himself consecrated mass with the same cup Jesus used at the last supper and that he left this chalice with his successors up until the time when it was sent to Spain by St. Lawrence to avoid losing it to one of the sacks on rome.

In Valencia, Spain, there is a cup that is found to be made of the same type of agate stone that was used at that time to make cups, and it dates all the way back to the time of Christ.
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why are only certain of the first popes mentioned in tthe Roman Canon -- in other words, why those specific ones? they aren't listed in the Canon in order of reign. it seems very random. is it?

[Aloysius]

Because Jesus wasn't the pope, Jesus was the Messiah. He instituted the Papacy with Peter, not with Himself. He made Peter the earthly head of His Church, because He was to always be the Heavenly Head. Peter is the vicar and Christ is the King. You don't call a king his own vicar, you don't call Christ his own vicar on earth. Christ is Christ, the pope is his vicar.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='dspen2005' date='Sep 29 2005, 10:39 PM']why are only certain of the first popes mentioned in tthe Roman Canon -- in other words, why those specific ones?  they aren't listed in the Canon in order of reign.  it seems very random.  is it?
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[/quote]
I'm sure there a great stories and traditions for many of them, when I said we don't [i]know[/i] much about them I meant we don't have anything they wrote down or any questions they answered of surrounding Christian communities.

Many of them were martyrs, we do know that. Perhaps someone else can fill in on other facts and/or traditions about the early popes.

[jezic]

maybe so :

[dspen2005]

that wasn't my question.... look at the list of popes then look at the Roman Canon. How did the Popes listed in the Roman Canon get there, why??? We don't hear caius' name in the Canon, or Anacetus'....

[Aloysius]

I knew what your question was. My answer was basically a "I don't know, maybe there's stories and traditions about them that are pertinent to the prayer requests of the Church"

[thessalonian]

I was reading I think it was yesterday's Navarre Bible commentary and they said the papacy was bestowed on Peter in John 21 with Jesus threefold "feed my lambs, feed my sheep, feed my lambs".

I find it interesting that there have been many anti-popes in Rome. Some tried to usurp papal authority BEFORE constantine supposedly, Hippolatus and Novation were in the second century. according to Protestants, started the Catholic Church. Why were they so interested in the Roman See. There were few anti-bishops in other areas though there were a few. This to me points to something special about the Roman Bishopric. There is evidence of this as well in the writings of Ignatius of Antioch who said that Rome is where the pure faith could be found. Also Clement of Rome, the third bishop of Rome, wrote his authoritative letter to the Corinthians from 600 miles away at a time when John the Apostle was in Ephesus, 200 miles away. This letter was higly regarded throughout the early Church.

Blessings

[curtins]

The papacy began with and can be traced back to St. Peter.