Guest JeffCR07 Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 [quote name='Jason' date='Oct 8 2005, 09:16 PM']God can use evil for good, right? So if Satan did not exist, than there would be no rebellion, there would be no sin, and we wouldn't have Jesus Christ as our Savior and His Catholic Church. Now I understand that Satan exist's for a reason, and we all exist for a reason, but saint's have said if we would see Satan we would die. He isn't a beautiful angel anymore in his true self now he can appear to be. Because of his angelic power. Now I totally agree God is love, if He does not love something it would cease to exist. I understand God loves sinners, to the end. But everyone has a chance unto death to repeant, have confession, and recieve Christ in Holy Communion. This excludes odd situations, like sudden death and such, only God can determine the out come of those. I am speaking of a person knowing he is dieing in a state of mind for confession, and to recieve Holy Communion. My confusion is this, in Scripture it say's "depart from me I never knew you." Now at that statement you cease to exist in the Heavenly Kingdom of God. Right? I just need a good theo study on this! [right][snapback]751084[/snapback][/right] [/quote] As omni hinted at, what Christ means by "I never knew you" is not that God never had knowledge of the sinner, but rather, that God and the sinner are not in communion, which is what is meant by "knowing" someone in an intimate way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 [quote name='omnipresentbob' date='Oct 9 2005, 03:36 AM']What would be the theological reprucussions of evil(ie, Satan) existing from the beginning of time? [right][snapback]751476[/snapback][/right] [/quote] First, it is important to note that Satan is not synonymous with Evil. Satan is a good being by virtue of being a creation of God, who left communion with the Holy One through an act of free will. Satan is called the Prince of Lies and the master of sin because his was the first sin. Now lets look at those theological repercussions: God either did or did not make the Devil Lets first assume that God [i]did[/i] make the devil. If the Devil was always evil, it would follow that God made an evil creature, and from this it would follow that God is not Supreme Goodness and, from this, it would follow that God is not God. Now let us assume that God did [i]not[/i] make the devil. It would follow from this that the Devil was either made by something other than God, or that the Devil is eternal. If the Devil is eternal, then it would follow that God is not Supreme Being, because something else would exist from itself, rather than from God. But this would mean that God is not God. Only two options remain. The first is that the Devil was created by something other than God, and that this other thing has its existence from God. The second is that God created the Devil. Because there is nothing that necessitates that the Devil was always evil, we can eliminate the first option by virtue of Occham's Razor - there is no need to posit a third party creator of the Devil. Yours in Christ, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 Sacra Crux sit mihi lux, non draco sit mihi dux. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crusader1234 Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 If God created everything, and Satan is something, and God loves all creation, then God loves Satan. If God created everything, and Satan is something EVIL, and God loves all creation, then God doesn't love satan because he's EVIL. Which one of these statements makes sense to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cow of Shame Posted October 23, 2005 Share Posted October 23, 2005 Hey, I just came for the dessert tray & the free booze. Don't ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benedict Posted October 23, 2005 Share Posted October 23, 2005 [quote name='Theoketos' date='Oct 12 2005, 02:31 PM']Sacra Crux sit mihi lux, non draco sit mihi dux. [right][snapback]755902[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Vade retro Satana! Nunquam suade mihi vana! Sunt mala quae libas. Ipse venena bibas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
termitescoming4u! Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 yea, that's true. God loves the true Satan [then Angel Lucifer] He created, and not the thing Satan turned himself into [devil and evil]. He'll still love Satan if he can REPENT of his sins and come bac to God. But since he cannot go back to God [because once you've fallen as angel, you have fallen FOREVER], and therefore, have rejected all that has to do with God and good, he's deprived of God's love and mercy, and therefore cannot be made holy again, and an angel of God. And God doesn't go back on his word [Satan's been condemned forever by God], so he remains Satan and in Hell, forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 [quote name='crusader1234' date='Oct 17 2005, 07:26 AM']If God created everything, and Satan is something, and God loves all creation, then God loves Satan. If God created everything, and Satan is something EVIL, and God loves all creation, then God doesn't love satan because he's EVIL. Which one of these statements makes sense to you? [right][snapback]760974[/snapback][/right] [/quote] The second assertion fails because there is no such thing as "something evil." Rather, evil is a lack of the Good. This means that there is not some positively existing evil that God must love. What we are referring to when we say "x is evil" is that some positively existing thing, which is good when considered in itself (because God made it) is lacking a particular Good (also good in itself). Thus, it doesn't make sense to say that Satan is [i]something[/i] evil, because anything that is something is from God, and anything from God is Good. Thus, positively existing things are Good. Your Brother In Christ, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatty07 Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 Can I underscore a point that's already been introduced? The mere existence of Satan proves that God loves, at the very least, Satan's existence. Remember, Satan is not some threatening force warring against Heaven that God has to muster all His heavenly hosts to defeat in one awesome final battle. Satan is a creature and if God ever wants him gone He won't have to go beat him up or whatever, He need only stop holding him in existence! Satan may be a threat to us, but next to God he's a pathetic little yippy poodle. So why doesn't God stop creating this annoying creature? Because his existence remains good, despite the complete evil that Satan uses it for. If God continues to hold him in existence, surely it is because his existence glorifies God and will yet play a part in God's plan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 It's not like Satan could actually stand to be in Heaven anyways. I dunno, but that could almost be worse than Hell to be before God for all eternity in such a state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onathing1 Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 Doesn't God hate all things evil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 as has been said before, there can be no evil thing. evil is a deficiency of good, a twisting of good. the only way satan can be evil is if he is twisting something good-- thus he is good and his bad actions twist that good. God loves the good, all that He created and causes to exist is good. thus, God loves the good he created in the angel lucifer. lucifer by his free will twists that good, God hates the twisting of that good, but the nature of the twister, even if it be defficient, is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onathing1 Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Nov 8 2005, 12:27 PM']as has been said before, there can be no evil thing. evil is a deficiency of good, a twisting of good. the only way satan can be evil is if he is twisting something good-- thus he is good and his bad actions twist that good. God loves the good, all that He created and causes to exist is good. thus, God loves the good he created in the angel lucifer. lucifer by his free will twists that good, God hates the twisting of that good, but the nature of the twister, even if it be defficient, is good. [right][snapback]782530[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Please correct me if I misunderstood....did you just say that there is no evil thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 Evil does not have a nature. Evil is not a positive reality, it is something that negatively affects nature. nature is always something positively good, and the twisting of that good is what is defined as an evil action. The deficiency in that good is what is defined as an evil state. Thus, our fallen nature is an evil state, but the nature that remains from that defficiency is completely good. Satan's deffiicient nature is an evil state, but the nature of his being that remains is a positive good, because all things that God created are by nature good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onathing1 Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Nov 8 2005, 12:39 PM']Evil does not have a nature. Evil is not a positive reality, it is something that negatively affects nature. nature is always something positively good, and the twisting of that good is what is defined as an evil action. The deficiency in that good is what is defined as an evil state. Thus, our fallen nature is an evil state, but the nature that remains from that defficiency is completely good. Satan's deffiicient nature is an evil state, but the nature of his being that remains is a positive good, because all things that God created are by nature good. [right][snapback]782548[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Yes, God created all things to do good, but Satan is definately not good. If Satan's desire is to turn people away from God and do the opposite of good, then he certainly cannot be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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