Does God love Satan?

[Sarah_JC]

It's kind of like a parent who's child chooses to reject them... on a really big scale.

However, angelic beings are outside of time. So there's no concieveable way for them to repent. Satan and his followers made one choice, and that choice is for all eternity.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='DeeDee' date='Sep 30 2005, 05:49 PM']This is a really interesting thread. I never thought of this before, but if Jesus came to reconcile us to the Father, why wouldn't the angels including Satan be reconciled too? What do the angels and Satan have to do to be reconciled to God?
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They're outside of time and therefore cannot be.

However, we must also keep in mind that they had a much clearer understanding of what it meant to reject God than humans did. The choice they made, by their nature, was once for all and eternal...existing outside of time, they chose their entire path knowing all it would mean, outside of time.

I'm not sure that humans did...I think all they were told is that they would die.

As for why the angels couldn't be reconciled: Jesus became a man, not an angel. The merits of Jesus were therefore applied to humanity. For the fallen angels to be redeemed, Jesus would have to have become an angel.

[Guest T-Bone]

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' date='Sep 30 2005, 10:25 AM']I venture to say God must love Satan or else he wouldnt exist.

meaning I agree with Socrates I belive who said love the sinner hate the sin.
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I didn't know Socrates said that...those heathen Greek philosophers are more sophisticated than I thought.


Oh....you ment the [i]Socrates on Phatmass[/i].....

[Socrates]

[quote name='T-Bone' date='Oct 2 2005, 05:44 PM']I didn't know Socrates said that...those heathen Greek philosophers are more sophisticated than I thought.
Oh....you ment the [i]Socrates on Phatmass[/i].....
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Never underestimate the sophistication of us heathen Greeek philosophers!

[Socrates]

[quote name='Jason' date='Sep 29 2005, 08:30 PM']If God loves Satan why is their kingdoms divided? Why is their spiritual war?

If God and Satan got along, why did he come down from heaven and die for us that we may have a chance at eternal life? God conqured death, and death of the spirit. He came and brought The Truth for those in darkness!

Their not on the same team!
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You have a false idea of God's love. Love is not defined as "getting alonng" or having warm, fuzzy, friendly feelings for. (And God and angels don't have emotions in the human sense).
God loves all of His creatures insofar as He created them and they are good in their being. His love keeps them in existence.
This does not mean "God is on the same team" as the damned who rebelled against Him.
We are called to love our enemies. This does not mean we are to get along with them and support them in their evil actions.

[Slamtinky]

God's love always shines out, no matter what. It is us that can
block it, like Satan did. Therefore, God loves him, but Satan hates God. He has shut himself off from God's love.

[son_of_angels]

I agree with some on this thread. There is no hope for reconciliation between fallen angels and God, because there is no angelic redemption inherent in the incarnation of Christ. Moreover, such a redemption would be superfluous, as angels exist, with God and the saints, in a world in which the normal effects of time aren't quite the same as for men. By creating us within time, God gave us the grace of the full experience of free will and redemption. By entering time through the Man, Jesus, he brought that redemption to its ultimate goal.

Angels, however, have already made that choice, are making that choice as we speak, and will make that choice on the final day. It would be like wondering if saints could, like the angels, fall into sin. If they cannot are they not being denied free-will. However, again, in their existence, now, outside of time, they continue to make the choice they have made and will make in the future. Angels are likewise spirit. Their original Fall to me is the greatest mystery.

Nonetheless, I think everyone should read the Catechism 391-395. It has a very rich commentary on the subject (which, together with a full application of Angelic hierarchy, doctrine, and piety, I would like to write a book on someday).

To apply this to the question at hand, "Does God love Satan?" The immediate answer is yes, because if there was not some good in Satan's existence (and God must love the good) then Satan would not exist, having neither substance nor perception. That is one way to look at it.

However, this must be qualified. Does God love us simply for the promise of redemption? In other words, does God love us only because we have the potential to serve him? I would think not. Instead, he loves us because, in part, some part of every man, woman, and child is "in imago Dei" which reflects back to him his own glory. In sending the perfect form of man, Jesus, he shows us that our flesh is a participation in the Trinity, whereby we, in substance however differentiated, reflect the love of the son.

It would not be, perhaps, that big of a leap to say that angels reflect some aspect of God. Certainly it is not his "image" for that pertains to the Sonship of God, but perhaps his incorporeal "Spirit." God loves through his Spirit, and loves his Spirit, for it is the Personality of his Love. In this way, just as man may not always live in accordance with that "image" of God, the fallen angels do not live in the "spirit" of God. But that does not change the reflection of God within them.

However, God loves the Son in terms of relationship. He languishes in his love for Him, he places his Spirit in His care. This characterizes the redeeming, personal love of God towards man.

But to the Spirit his love is not redemption, but sending. To this extent, that which is broken, that which does not well communicate, that which obscures, these are all things which God cannot forgive, because the instrument of love is itself faulty. He cannot forgive it, because the nature of his love is different towards the Spirit as opposed to the Son. It is not defect, it is a glimpse into the ineffable mystery of the trinity.

[Nicole8223]

God is love. His very existence insists that He loves every creature. he does not love sin, but Satan is not the same as sin. He is a creature turned bad, but God still loves him.

[Livin_the_MASS]

Ok, so God loves Satan? Oh man?

What will he say to those who come to Him and say Lord, Lord did we not work great deeds in your name, and what does He do, He turns His head to those people and says, begone from me I never knew you!

That is just us human sinners now Aloysius made a good point that Satan's sinful act was different because he was angelic. So if God says to human sinners I never knew you to those who rejected His true ways, your going to sit there and say He loves Satan? WOW?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

God is Love, does Love, love sin? Does God love evil?
Satan is a different situation! We humans are fallen, Angels are perfect so there choices are different!

And Socrates I know what true love is, look at the Cross. Love Hurts, True Love Hurts!

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote name='Jason' date='Oct 6 2005, 07:43 PM']Ok, so God loves Satan? Oh man?

What will he say to those who come to Him and say Lord, Lord did we not work great deeds in your name, and what does He do, He turns His head to those people and says, begone from me I never knew you!

That is just us human sinners now Aloysius made a good point that Satan's sinful act was different because he was angelic. So if God says to human sinners I never knew you to those who rejected His true ways, your going to sit there and say He loves Satan? WOW?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

God is Love, does Love, love sin? Does God love evil?
Satan is a different situation! We humans are fallen, Angels are perfect so there choices are different!

And Socrates I know what true love is, look at the Cross. Love Hurts, True Love Hurts!
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I think there are a number of false philosophical/theological presuppositions that you are making that might be leading you astray - evil is not some [i]thing[/i] that exists, rather it is a lack of the good.

Now, God is the source of all Good and the source of all Being, and Being is itself a Good. Moreover, God is Love. From this, it follows that if God did not love some thing, it would cease to be. But Satan exists. Therefore God must love him. This can be shown in a second way as well: Satan is a Being - he is a [i]thing[/i] - and being considered in itself is a Good. But all Good comes from God, who is Love, and therefore Satan, who is a being, must be Loved by God. In the same way, God Loves all human sinners, [i]even the damned[/i].

Now, just because God Loves all things does not mean that all things are [i]in communion with[/i] God. Satan most certainly is not, neither are all the fallen angels, nor men and women in a state of mortal/original sin. These are the ones who, despite God's Love for them, have turned their backs on God, and whom He will not force back into communion.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

[Socrates]

[quote name='Jason' date='Oct 6 2005, 07:43 PM']Ok, so God loves Satan? Oh man?

What will he say to those who come to Him and say Lord, Lord did we not work great deeds in your name, and what does He do, He turns His head to those people and says, begone from me I never knew you!

That is just us human sinners now Aloysius made a good point that Satan's sinful act was different because he was angelic. So if God says to human sinners I never knew you to those who rejected His true ways, your going to sit there and say He loves Satan? WOW?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

God is Love, does Love, love sin? Does God love evil?
Satan is a different situation! We humans are fallen, Angels are perfect so there choices are different!

And Socrates I know what true love is, look at the Cross. Love Hurts, True Love Hurts!
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God loves human sinners, too! Really, you need to study some basic theology. God's love does not exclude His justice.

Again, you confuse love with "warm, friendly feelings." We can not understand God and His love which keeps all His creation in existence in terms of merely human emotions.

Edited October 7, 2005 by Socrates

[MissScripture]

[quote name='T-Bone' date='Oct 2 2005, 05:44 PM']I didn't know Socrates said that...those heathen Greek philosophers are more sophisticated than I thought.
Oh....you ment the [i]Socrates on Phatmass[/i].....
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I thought that, too, when I saw that!

[Livin_the_MASS]

Can anyone give me a theological link to this to do a study on this?

Pax
Jason

[Livin_the_MASS]

God can use evil for good, right?

So if Satan did not exist, than there would be no rebellion, there would be no sin, and we wouldn't have Jesus Christ as our Savior and His Catholic Church.

Now I understand that Satan exist's for a reason, and we all exist for a reason, but saint's have said if we would see Satan we would die. He isn't a beautiful angel anymore in his true self now he can appear to be. Because of his angelic power.

Now I totally agree God is love, if He does not love something it would cease to exist.

I understand God loves sinners, to the end.

But everyone has a chance unto death to repeant, have confession, and recieve Christ in Holy Communion. This excludes odd situations, like sudden death and such, only God can determine the out come of those. I am speaking of a person knowing he is dieing in a state of mind for confession, and to recieve Holy Communion.

My confusion is this, in Scripture it say's "depart from me I never knew you."

Now at that statement you cease to exist in the Heavenly Kingdom of God. Right?

I just need a good theo study on this!

[Guest omnipresentbob]

What would be the theological reprucussions of evil(ie, Satan) existing from the beginning of time?

As far as "I never knew you" goes... We believe that God knows all things (omniscient), and is everywhere (omnipresent). Therefore, if God knows all things, and is everywhere, how could He not know someone? This doesn't mean the Bible is contradicting itself. Rather, one must examine what Jesus means by, "I never knew you." Because my roommate is trying to sleep, but I'll try to make sense with a few words. Basically, Jesus is referring not to actually knowledge or intimacy with someone (for, He has both with all), rather, He is referring to a two-way relationship with someone.
Hope that helps.

Faith, Hope, Love,
Andrew