The Two Gender Specific Sacraments

[Aloysius]

:ph34r: that's right, two sacraments under ATTACK.

Holy Matrimony

Holy Orders

ppl want same-sex marriages. ppl want women to be ordained.

i'm here to tell you that for 6000 years these have been sacred rites and for 2000 years they have been sacred sacraments. it is not up to us to change them. if God wanted them changed, he would've done it.

that said, i'm gonna rant about women's ordination.

it has been brought up by ellenita and also -I---Love in person since she goes to my Church, that there are women out there who feel they have the call to the priesthood of Jesus Christ, true God and true MAN, who Himself ordained women and for 2000 years has not called any woman to be His priest. how come after the secular society starts tryin to shove down our throats that men and women are the same that women start "feeling called to the priesthood"?

i'll tell you why. they have a human-originated agenda. granted, i'm sure alot of em actually think this is what they're sposedta do, but where do you think this feeling, this "call" came from? well, there is evidence that they have a human-based agenda, the media tells them that equality means they are the same as women, while the Church still teaches they are equal but different <as she has always taught>. therefore, after the media has shoved this teaching down their throats they begin looking into the priesthood. now, for ANYBODY who believes in the Holy Eucharist and everything of the Holy Catholic Church, the priesthood is enticing. Who wouldn't wanna consecrate bread and wine to bring Jesus Christ to the ppl? it's very easy to want to be a priest. it's very easy to get that confused with being called to be a priest. and it's nearly impossible not to get the two confused when you've got this agenda in the back of your mind that women should be allowed to do everything men do so you'd better pave the way for women to be allowed to be priests.

at least that's my theory on why they feel this "call". anyway, the fact is, we don't know where the call comes from. Christ knew mere humans can't always tell the difference between a demon talking to them and an angel, or even God, talking them. for angels of darkness disguise themselves as angels of light. So Jesus, in His Holy Infinite wisdom, gave us a visible light in the darkness, a Church. A Church we can trust to be guided by the Spirit of Truth, a Church we can trust to teach us infallibly on matters of faith and morals.

And sacraments are FOR SURE matters of faith. So the Church infallibly teaches that God only calls men to the priesthood. according to Pope Paul VI, the Church infallibly teaches against women's ordination, therefore the visible sign of God's will which we must test any spiritual calls we get against, says women aren't called to the priesthood. "She" refers to Holy Mother Church

"She holds that it is not admissible to ordain women to the priesthood, for very fundamental reasons. These reasons include: the example recorded in the Sacred Scriptures of Christ choosing his Apostles only from among men; the constant practice of the Church, which has imitated Christ in choosing only men; and her living teaching authority which has consistently held that the exclusion of women from the priesthood is in accordance with God's plan for his Church."[1]

and there's an infallible statement by Pope John Paul II regarding the matter. many don't see it as infallible, but according to Lumen Gentium 25, it still must be adhered to even if it isn't infallible.

Bishops, teaching in communion with the Roman Pontiff, are to be respected by all as witnesses to divine and Catholic truth. In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to

alright, next to the infallible statement by Pope John Paul II,

"The teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the Magisterium in its more recent documents." and "In order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance...in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful."

as far as i'm concerned "in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32)" says in lamense terms "in virtue of my ministry as successor to St. Peter"

he is speaking ex cathedra Peter. whether or not you agree that it's infallible, Lumen Gentium 25 requires you to sincerely adhere to it. but it is. Check out the definition of an infallible statement ex Cathedra Peter

"...when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church."

srry i started a whole new thread about this. i felt i had a lot to say and i wanted to tie it into the same-sex marriage thing, showing how we are fighting to defend the sacraments.

alright, in part two i will rave about the other gender-specific sacrament under fire, Matrimony. until then, this is a soldier of Christ defending His Holy Sacraments as the world tries to tear them down

~Aloysius

[FaustinaVianney]

Aloysius-I have to give you snaps for 'ranting' about these things. People have got to start standing up for the Church and what it teaches! I agree with you in thinking that the women that believe they are 'called to be a priest' have that vocation confused. I believe they are wanting the glory of being a priest. Who wouldn't want to bring our Dear Lord Jesus to everyone, but we can do it in so many other ways than in the way a priest does it at Mass! Does that make sense?

*HUGS-n-PEACE*

:)

[Dave]

Right on, Aloysius! Any woman who thinks she has a calling to the priesthood is woefully misguided at best and in the grips of Satan at worst.

[Confessionator741]

Al, you rock my world....-I---Love was asking me to refute the idea of women in the priesthood, and i was like...wow...i really need Al's help....

AH, you rock AL...thank you for posting it

[Aloysius]

http://www.womenpriests.org/

THEY PROVIDE LIES AS TRUTH OFFERING RHETORIC AS PROOF.

Paraphrased from KidKapps.

[-I---Love]

Don't believe that all women who think they have a Priestly vocation desire the glory of being a Priest. The Priesthood is so holy beyond words to even describe...they are Mary's beloved Sons...I bow down to the humble service of the Priesthood ... our Holy Priests!

But I cannot agree that all of these women believing they have a call to the Priesthood is because they have pride and are not humble, that they want glory. If every man were to not become a Priest because they were not worthy no one would be a Priest on this earth.

Are we saying that it is absolutely impossible and not happening nor has it ever happened that the Holy Spirit has called a woman to the Priesthood? If so I don't think I buy it.

Quite frankly I think I have decided that this topic of women ordination is much more a matter to debate with prayer than with words...words are useless...prayer brings GOD!

[Aloysius]

:unsure: well i agree prayer is important.

however, prayer doesn't necessarily lead you into all truth, as plenty of protestants pray and pray yet come up with different truths all the time.

i didn't mean to say that these ppl are necessarily looking for the glory of it.. i'm just saying that it's clear that in the last century the society has formed an agenda to have women do everything men do and men do everything women do. don't you find it odd that no one claimed to be called by God to the priesthood until now, after all that stuff happened in the secular world?

we pray and pray, and when we get an answer, we check it against the Church's teaching and the Bible's teaching and if it contradicts either, we can know it is not of God, but either of our own mind or of the devil.

[Ellenita]

Actually I have not made the case for the ordination of women anywhere! In fact I have stated very clearly that although I might call myself feminist in terms of many other issues, I would not personally choose to attend a church which is led by a woman priest - an issue which I have perhaps been forced to address more than some other people at Phatmass since I was raised an anglican and returned to that denomination in recent years following some years in other protestant denominations. I did suggest that to use the 'custom and practice' of current day thinking as an argument against the ordination of women is disingenuous because it then lends itself to the 'custom and practice' thinking of the early church which provides a similar argument for the ordination of women. However to cite clear references from the pope, if one accepts that the authority of the pope is infallible is a perfectly justifiable argument in my opinion.

I also still hold to the position that I personally cannot question the calling of another person - isn't that for God to judge? Won't we all stand before Him and have to personally account for whether we truely heard His voice and responded in all areas of our lives, including the 'calling/career' we have?

I think the calling to the priest hood is a mighty and fearful calling and not to be taken lightly. I do not believe that I would be worthy of such a calling even if I were not a woman so I am completely relieved that I am not going to have to face this decision!

[Aloysius]

i was just mentioning that you mentioned there are women out there who think they are called and who are you to question them. i know i can't determine any1's call either, but if the call contradicts the infallibility of the Catholic Church, then i can say, because of my faith in Christ's Church, that that call is not of GOd, but it is either from within them or from the devil. i personally cannot judge what God calls someone to do. i am DEFINITELY NOT WORTHY of the call of the priesthood, and for reasons known to me and God alone, i prolly won't be a priest. no one is worthy of the call to the priesthood. but certain men are picked out by the Lord. i say MEN specifically, because the Lord's Church infallibly tells us that God only calls MEN to the priesthood.

does anyone here still have question about the infallibility of that statement? honestly?

[Aloysius]

for the above question,

unless you're not Catholic we all know non-Catholics don't agree that any Papal statement is infallible. i mean for the Catholics out there, is anyone not convinced that JPII was speakin Ex Cathedra Peter?

[jmjtina]

The subject of womens ordination is not open to debate with the Church, because the Church does not have the authority to change the teachings of Jesus Christ. It is not the Holy Spirit inspiring women to be priests, just as it wasn't the Holy Spirit who "inspired" Martin Luther to break away from the Church.

[Ellenita]

It is not the Holy Spirit inspiring women to be priests

So do you think we have the right on an individual level to challenge women who say that they have received a calling to be a priest?

Are there many Catholic women who are arguing for the right to be priests? I didn't think it was an issue within the Catholic church, though I wonder how she would react if an Anglican congregation decided they wanted to come into full communion with the Catholic church but they had a woman priest? How would that be addressed given that married priests have been allowed to continue as priests.....

[jmjtina]

So do you think we have the right on an individual level to challenge women who say that they have received a calling to be a priest?

Truth does not contradict Truth. Again we have no authority to change what Jesus himself taught in regards to women ordination. We have a duty to help others understand what Jesus taught as well as defend what the Church teaches, especially infallible doctrines. Woman can and do serve the church (as we said in a previous thread) but not in the Catholic priesthood.

this story might help:

Click Here

The Fathers rejected female ordination, not because it was incompatible with Christian culture, but because it was incompatible with Christian faith. Thus, together with biblical declarations, the teaching of the Fathers on this issue formed the tradition of the Church that taught that priestly ordination was reserved to men. Throughout medieval times and even up until the present day, this teaching has not changed.

from:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Women_and_the_Priesthood.asp

Men who are from another faith who are married have come into the Catholic Church. I myself know a priest who is married and who converted along with his congregation. He was Anglican. The infallible teachings are that women could not be priests in the Catholic Church. So to answer your question, no, the woman would have to step down (she would already know this if she was converting) whereas the male priest could remain. The teaching of married male priests is a tradition.

[Katholikos]

So do you think we have the right on an individual level to challenge women who say that they have received a calling to be a priest?

Yes. God does not call women to the priesthood.

Are there many Catholic women who are arguing for the right to be priests? I didn't think it was an issue within the Catholic church, though I wonder how she would react if an Anglican congregation decided they wanted to come into full communion with the Catholic church but they had a woman priest? How would that be addressed given that married priests have been allowed to continue as priests.....

It is an issue with dissidents. Unity between Catholics and Anglicans is on the back burner and the fire has been turned out -- as the Pope told the Archbishop of Canterbury it would be when it was announced that the first priestess was to be ordained. And, there's still the problem of invalid orders in the Anglican Church. Married priests don't "continue on." Any converting "priest" must be ordained de novo .

Linda Poindexter recently resigned as an Episcopal "priest" and became a Catholic.

Read about it here:

http://suewidemark.freeservers.com/womanpri_rcc.htm

JMJ Likos

[Ellenita]

An interesting story jmjtina - thanks for the link.

Although I would not make an argument for the ordination of women, I have been bothered about my right to question someone's calling and am trying to resolve that issue in my mind. I don't mean this in any way offensively, but it feels to me like a form of arrogance to say that I know someone's calling more that they know themselves.

I can see using the teaching of the church if you hold that it's infallible and is not open to personal interpretation would be a valid argument, but of course this involves the woman accepting that the teaching is infallible - perhaps I am so 'young' in my understanding of this at the moment that I'm not confident of making the argument!

I think the church needs to be more explicit about the different kind of roles women have within the church and the part they have to play in terms of the spiritual life of the community. The church believes that women have an important role to play, just not administering the sacrements right?