Help!

[Muschi]

Greetings and God bless!

I implore everyone's help on this matter and thank you in advance.

I am currently and have been for 1 1/2 years with a "prominant" author from Chick Publications.......(I know, I'm probably wasting my time but since he keeps answering my e-mails, I maintain hope!)

He claims that the hierchy of our Church is rotten from the top down because according to him, the Church from the Pope on down has known all along about the sex scandals that have hit us hard the past couple of years was known all along! I told him the Church IS doing something about it but he claims that we are only trying to save face.

Anyone with more knowledge on this matter able to help me with my response?

I have decided that to not respond to this is not an option. This person and I have pretty much been able to maintain a cordial dialogue and I really want to keep it that way. I pray for this man's conversion.

ps. Ironmonk- I bet you know who I'm referring to. Think about past e-mail and writing books. I havne't gotten very far, but with prayer, I'll finish. - God bless!

God bless all and thanks in advance! - Muschi

[cmotherofpirl]

First of all does the guy think sin, particularly sexual sin is something NEW?

Does he think the protestant churches are somehow immune to this?

O he that is without sin caste the first stone.

[God Conquers]

Even IF the whole hierarchy knew about it, which is doubtful, and is trying to save face (who wouldn't?) what does that say? That we're human? WHOA! REVELATION!

[Jake Huether]

Ask him to show you the Church doctrine that states that sexual sins are okay.

What sinful humans do, and what the Divine Church Teaches are two totally different things.

God bless you in your efforts.

[Anna]

Amen, Jake!

And also tell him that the fact the Church still stands after 2,000 years of humans doing their best sometimes to mess it all up is a testimony in itself that this Church is protected by God!

The Churches established by humans either fall apart, or splinter apart.

Our Church, established by Jesus Christ will not fall apart, no matter how faulty the humans at the helm.

Pax Christi. <><

[phatcatholic]

muschi,

dave armstrong, at his "Biblical Evidence" website has alot of information about the sexual abuse scandal. first click on this link:

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ421.HTM

once you do that, click on the hyperlink entitled "Priestly Sex and Molestation Scandal"

you should find plenty of information there. also, if u go to usccb.org, you can find documents outlining the US bishops official stance on the issue and what exactly they have instituted to correct the issue and ensure that a scandal like this never happens again. they are very specific in the measures they have initiated in response to this ordeal, so these documents should be very helpful. unfortunately, i don't have time to provide a link, or i would save u the trouble of having to find them urself (although i doubt they will be very hard to find)

good luck and GOd Bless,

nick

[Muschi]

Thanks all, you guys made some good points

special thanks to phatcatholic for the websites. I can find the usccb.org site on me own! God bless all! -Muschi

[Muschi]

Anna-

I love your avatar! I also think you made a beautiful point in just one sentence! The fact that the Catholic Church still exists today is definately not of human effort!

Thanks for the wonderful reminder. I'm still a pretty new convert to this amesome Church, I love it very, very much but I am still learning and growing and it sure is nice to be on "phriendly" turf! - God bless! - Muschi

[Muschi]

To all with gratitude:

Once again I really appreciate everyone's help. However, now I must ask if anyone has heard of/dealt with/experienced a new program in place in the Catholic schools within the Diocese of Boston called "Talking about Touching" designed to "educate children about inappropriate touching." I heard this program lambasted on my local Catholic radio station, but it seems that the current Bishop O'Malley strongly supports it despite strong criticism from parents and even some priests who consider it to be "teaching sin". Grant it, my sources come from the internet, so I don't currently have an opinion one way or another, especially since I know next to nothing about the program. (The Catholic station I listen to broadcasted about this over six months ago and I forgot overall what they had to say.) the only thing I remember is "TAT bad!"......lol. And maybe the program is bad, but without more info which I'm having trouble finding on the 'net, I can't find out and THE PERSON I'M CURRENTLY IN "DIALOGUE" with strongly condemns this program and therefore our Church. I know very well that some people are going to criticize our Church no matter what, but I really want to at least respond intelligently to this topic. Thanks once again for any help in advance! - God bless and reward!- Muschi :)

[Vectoris Lux Lucis!]

:( The sad truth of the matter is this- who ever you are associating with inside Chick.com is haren-fast to his beliefs. I have attempted similar email dialogues, and have even done well in disproving much. Even still, I have never heard of a conversion coming from one of those guys. That's not to say to lose hope. OF course not! But, with that in mind, you have to come to the reality that many will not change, and that at one point to need to kick the dust from your sandals and move on....

[Katholikos]

Muschi, You may find this helpful.

"The Myth of the Pedophile Priest"

A Researcher Puts Scandals in Context

PITTSBURGH, Pennsylvania, MARCH 11, 2002 (Zenit.org).- Philip Jenkins, a

Penn State University professor of history and religious studies, is author of

"Pedophiles and Priests: Anatomy of a Contemporary Crisis" (Oxford

University Press, 1996). He wrote this article for the Pittsburgh Post Gazette, which

published it March 3 under the headline "The Myth of the Pedophile Priest."

* * *

By Philip Jenkins

Every day, the news media have a new horror story to report, under some

sensational headline: Newsweek, typically, is devoting its current front

cover to "Sex, Shame and the Catholic Church: 80 Priests Accused of Child Abuse in Boston." Though the sex abuse cases have deep roots, the most recent

scandals were detonated by the affair of Boston priest John J. Geoghan.

Though his superiors had known for years of Geoghan's pedophile activities,

he kept being transferred from parish to parish, regardless of the safety

of the children in his care. The stigma of the Geoghan affair could last for

decades, and some Catholics are declaring in their outrage that they can

never trust their church again.

No one can deny that Boston church authorities committed dreadful errors,

but at the same time, the story is not quite the simple tale of good and evil

that it sometime appears. Hard though it may be to believe right now, the

"pedophile priest" scandal is nothing like as sinister as it has been

painted -- or at least, it should not be used to launch blanket accusations against the Catholic Church as a whole.

We have often heard the phrase "pedophile priest" in recent weeks. Such

individuals can exist: Father Geoghan was one, as was the notorious Father

James Porter a decade or so back. But as a description of a social problem, the

term is wildly misleading. Crucially, Catholic priests and other clergy have

nothing like a monopoly on sexual misconduct with minors.

My research of cases over the past 20 years indicates no evidence whatever

that Catholic or other celibate clergy are any more likely to be involved

in misconduct or abuse than clergy of any other denomination -- or inDouche,

than nonclergy. However determined news media may be to see this affair as a

crisis of celibacy, the charge is just unsupported.

Literally every denomination and faith tradition has its share of abuse

cases, and some of the worst involve non-Catholics. Every mainline

Protestant denomination has had scandals aplenty, as have Pentecostals, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Jews, Buddhists, Hare Krishnas -- and the list goes on. One Canadian Anglican (Episcopal) diocese is currently on the verge of bankruptcy as a result of massive lawsuits caused by decades of systematic abuse, yet the Anglican church does not demand celibacy of its clergy.

However much this statement contradicts conventional wisdom, the "pedophile

priest" is not a Catholic specialty. Yet when did we ever hear about

"pedophile pastors"?

Just to find some solid numbers, how many Catholic clergy are involved in

misconduct? We actually have some good information on this issue, since in

the early 1990s, the Catholic Archdiocese of Chicago undertook a bold and

thorough self-study. The survey examined every priest who had served in the

archdiocese over the previous 40 years, some 2,200 individuals, and reopened every internal complaint ever made against these men. The standard of evidence

applied was not legal proof that would stand up in a court of law, but just the

consensus that a particular charge was probably justified.

By this low standard, the survey found that about 40 priests, about 1.8

percent of the whole, were probably guilty of misconduct with minors at

some point in their careers. Put another way, no evidence existed against about 98

percent of parish clergy, the overwhelming majority of the group.

Since other organizations dealing with children have not undertaken such

comprehensive studies, we have no idea whether the Catholic figure is

better or worse than the rate for schoolteachers, residential home counselors, social workers or scout masters.

The Chicago study also found that of the 2,200 priests, just one was a

pedophile. Now, many people are confused about the distinction between a

pedophile and a person guilty of sex with a minor. The difference is very

significant.

The phrase "pedophile priests" conjures up images of the worst violation of

innocence, callous molesters like Father Porter who assault children 7

years old. "Pedophilia" is a psychiatric term meaning sexual interest in children

below the age of puberty.

But the vast majority of clergy misconduct cases are nothing like this. The

vast majority of instances involve priests who have been sexually active

with a person below the age of sexual consent, often 16 or 17 years old, or even

older. An act of this sort is wrong on multiple counts: It is probably

criminal, and by common consent it is immoral and sinful; yet it does not have the

utterly ruthless, exploitative character of child molestation. In almost

all cases too, with the older teen-agers, there is an element of consent.

Also, the definition of "childhood" varies enormously between different

societies. If an act of this sort occurred in most European countries, it

would probably be legal, since the age of consent for boys is usually around 15.

To take a specific example, when newspapers review recent cases of "pedophile

priests," they commonly cite a case that occurred in California's Orange

County, when a priest was charged with having consensual sex with a 17-year-old

boy. Whatever the moral quality of such an act, most of us would not apply the

term "child abuse" or "pedophilia." For this reason alone, we need to be

cautious when we read about scores of priests being "accused of child abuse."

The age of the young person involved is also so important because different

kinds of sexual misconduct respond differently to treatment, and church

authorities need to respond differently. If a diocese knows a man is a

pedophile, and ever again places him in a position where he has access to more children, that decision is simply wrong, and probably amounts to criminal neglect.

But a priest who has a relationship with an older teen-ager is much more likely

to respond to treatment, and it would be more understandable if some day the

church placed him in a new parish, under careful supervision.

The fact that Cardinal Law's regime in Boston seems to have blundered time

and again does not mean that this is standard practice for all Catholic

dioceses, still less that the church is engaged in some kind of conspiracy

of silence to hide dangerous perverts.

I am in no sense soft on the issue of child abuse. Recently, I published an

expose of the trade in electronic child pornography, one of the absolute

worst forms of exploitation, and my argument was that the police and FBI need to

be pressured to act more strictly against this awful thing.

My concern over the "pedophile priest" issue is not to defend evil clergy,

or a sinful church (I cannot be called a Catholic apologist, since I am not

even a Catholic). But I am worried that justified anger over a few awful cases

might be turned into ill-focused attacks against innocent clergy.

The story of clerical misconduct is bad enough without turning into an

unjustifiable outbreak of religious bigotry against the Catholic Church.

ZE02031121

[Muschi]

Great article, Katholikos!!!

I will definately be passing this on.

Someone else above your post (sorry is it lux?.....? I'm sorry! My short-term memory isn't what it once was. But this person said that there comes a time when one must shake the dust off one's sandals and move on. I'm almost at that point, but since I'm pretty stubborn, I'll give it maybe another month. I don't know. I pray for him though. Many of you probably know who this person is. I KNOW Ironmonk does!

Yep, he's none other than Rick Jones. There has to be SOMETHING he can't refute without coming out a lier and thus making him actually think a bit more?

sigh! I don't know. - God bless all! - Muschi :)

[Anna]

Good Ol' Rick.

Yes, he claims that if you can prove him wrong, he'll correct his lies.

But he never does, just keeps on lying.

I shook his sand outta my sandals after the first couple of emails, but then again, I am not a patient person.

Maybe just ask him what Jesus meant when He said, "upon this rock...."

Pax Christi. <><

[hopeful1]

To all with gratitude:

Once again I really appreciate everyone's help.  However, now I must ask if anyone has heard of/dealt with/experienced a new program in place in the Catholic schools within the Diocese of Boston called "Talking about Touching" designed to "educate children about inappropriate touching."  I heard this program lambasted on my local Catholic radio station, but it seems that the current Bishop O'Malley strongly supports it despite strong criticism from parents and even some priests who consider it to be "teaching sin".  Grant it, my sources come from the internet, so I don't currently have an opinion one way or another, especially since I know next to nothing about the program.  (The Catholic station I listen to broadcasted about this over six months ago and I forgot overall what they had to say.)  the only thing I remember is "TAT bad!"......lol.  And maybe the program is bad, but without more info which I'm having trouble finding on the 'net, I can't find out and THE PERSON I'M CURRENTLY IN "DIALOGUE" with strongly condemns this program and therefore our Church.  I know very well that some people are going to criticize our Church no matter what, but I really want to at least respond intelligently to this topic.  Thanks once again for any help in advance! - God bless and reward!- Muschi

well, i definately know as much as you do about the program, but O'Malley used to be in charge of my dioscease ( sp?) and took over when O'connell resigned. from what i hear he's really conservative and supportive of celibacy and traditional. This may not have to do with anything, but he's pretty cool and i imagine he has to have a good reason to support it. I haven't been following up what been going on with him in boston for a while (last i heard he was trying to make a settlement with the victims) but i have to believe he's doing the best he can.

[Muschi]

Hopeful-

Last I heard, Bishop O'Malley did inDouche succeed in making a settlement if I'm not mistaken for a sum total of $86 Million over all. (?) This comes from my local News,(that's "snooze")paper though, so I'm not sure.

Actually, I was able to do some kind of digging and am awaiting a response from someone from within the Boston Diocese regarding this "controversial?" program. I should hear from him next week since he's currently out of town. We shall see.

Anna-

I totally understand lack of patience, as I suffer from it rather acutely myself.

However, I also am a "masochist" at times. (a.k.a. "glutton" for punishment.)

I guess I just don't want this guy to say he has any excuse for brushing any of us off who might be able to provide him with the needed information that will bring him to the greatest possible joy in his life. So, I stubbornly hang in there but given the fact that is has been a year and half already, I am FINALLY beginning to tire too, and should just get off my lazy butt and finish the so-called "book" that I already started on which directly refutes his. Please keep me in your prayers and may God bless you and all of you on this phorum. It really is good to be on friendly grounds for a change. God bless! - Muschi :)