Distinction in Lust

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 22 2005, 10:09 PM']I think they are both lust.  Lust does not need to be carnal.
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Right. I find, for myself, that the carnal experience of lust is a reflection of a deeper spiritual issue. But, even if I'm not experiencing the carnal expression of that spiritual problem, the spiritual problem is (sometimes) still there.

[Sojourner]

bump, cuz I'd love to get other thoughts on this ...

[Nicole8223]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Sep 22 2005, 10:51 PM']Interesting discussion, but I really think this is being over-analyzed.  Lust is simply the seeking of sexual pleasure outside the blessing of marriage.  It is wanting a person simply for his or her body to satisfy one's physical cravings.
Lust occurs in both women and women.
Men are generally more quickly stimulated, but women can be just as lustful.

I think what Micah was saying about women is really a different sin from lust.  I'm not sure exactly what to term it (seeking men for social status), but it would seem related more to the sins of avarice and envy.  (Avarice for social status and/or material wealth and over-concern with having a better "match" than one's "girlfriends").

I think this is a common problem with females.  I know in my younger days, a lot of girls would avoid having any association with me because I was not in the right social clique.

However, this is not exactly the same as lust.
Lust is when a woman wants a guy simply because she thinks he'll be "great in the sack" or just likes his body.
It's avarice or envy when she wants him simply for advancing her own social status.
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I agree. I think the sin Micah mentioned as "women's lust" is more pride or envy than anything else. I've experienced both. I've lusted after a man in a sexual sense (yes, women experience that the same way men do sometimes!), but I've also looked at a guy as a status symbol or power symbol. They are two very different things.

Sojourner, your post is interesting. I do agree that there are different experiences of lust for men and women, different levels or degrees even. But I think that what Micah mentioned in the first post is not lust (the women's version at least).

I think men and women both have sexual appetites and personally, I think a lot of times, it is assumed that women do not get stimulated visually at all. They do! It is not to the same degree as men (in most cases at least), but women suffer from looking lustfully at men and thinking lustful thoughts. I used to run a women's group and this was something we all discussed. It is sometimes hard for girls to come forward with certain problems, specifically sexual, because people assume that women do not struggle with sexual temptation in the way men do. In my experience, I have found a lot of women who think they are alone in their struggle with sexuality, because it is thought of to be a guy thing.

Phew, that got long quick!

Edited September 23, 2005 by Nicole8223

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Nicole8223' date='Sep 23 2005, 10:26 AM']I agree.  I think the sin Micah mentioned as "women's lust" is more pride or envy than anything else.  I've experienced both.  I've lusted after a man in a sexual sense (yes, women experience that the same way men do sometimes!), but I've also looked at a guy as a status symbol or power symbol.
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I never, ever said that women didn't...in fact, I explicitly said that they did. I said there was overlap. I know women who are addicted to pornography. I know that it's not exclusive to males.

Regardless, greed is want of treasure...lust is want of power.

I mean, one could say that I'm being greedy when I lust, too. If I'm lusting, then I'm saying, "I want her and I want her to be all mine" in a way which does not respect her as a person. That sounds like greed, but it's lust. Why? Because the reason I want her is not to enjoy having lots of goods, but rather to exert some sense of power (mastering her).

I will say that greed and lust are very closely tied, but there is a subtle distinction. Likewise, we can be greedy sexually without lusting, and we can lust without being greedy, but I would say the distinction is here:

Woman disrespects a man by taking advantage of his money so she can have lots of things: greed.

Woman disrespects a man by taking advantage of his status so she can be "in": lust.

Distinction of desire for things and desire for power.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 23 2005, 10:54 AM']I never, ever said that women didn't...in fact, I explicitly said that they did.  I said there was overlap.  I know women who are addicted to pornography.  I know that it's not exclusive to males.

Regardless, greed is want of treasure...lust is want of power.

I mean, one could say that I'm being greedy when I lust, too.  If I'm lusting, then I'm saying, "I want her and I want her to be all mine" in a way which does not respect her as a person.  That sounds like greed, but it's lust.  Why?  Because the reason I want her is not to enjoy having lots of goods, but rather to exert some sense of power (mastering her).

I will say that greed and lust are very closely tied, but there is a subtle distinction.  Likewise, we can be greedy sexually without lusting, and we can lust without being greedy, but I would say the distinction is here:

Woman disrespects a man by taking advantage of his money so she can have lots of things: greed.

Woman disrespects a man by taking advantage of his status so she can be "in": lust.

Distinction of desire for things and desire for power.
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I think you and I define lust in very different ways ... or maybe I'm just an atypical woman. I don't think I lust in the way you describe. For me, it's not about "having lots of things" or "taking advantage of his status so I can be 'in'" ... it's a very different experience for me.

Or, perhaps it really is the same, I just use different words to describe what I'm feeling. I don't see my desires trending toward money and power, though.

[Nicole8223]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 23 2005, 11:54 AM']I never, ever said that women didn't...in fact, I explicitly said that they did.  I said there was overlap.  I know women who are addicted to pornography.  I know that it's not exclusive to males.

Regardless, greed is want of treasure...lust is want of power.

I mean, one could say that I'm being greedy when I lust, too.  If I'm lusting, then I'm saying, "I want her and I want her to be all mine" in a way which does not respect her as a person.  That sounds like greed, but it's lust.  Why?  Because the reason I want her is not to enjoy having lots of goods, but rather to exert some sense of power (mastering her).

I will say that greed and lust are very closely tied, but there is a subtle distinction.  Likewise, we can be greedy sexually without lusting, and we can lust without being greedy, but I would say the distinction is here:

Woman disrespects a man by taking advantage of his money so she can have lots of things: greed.

Woman disrespects a man by taking advantage of his status so she can be "in": lust.

Distinction of desire for things and desire for power.
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I wasn't accusing you of being one of those who assumes, Micah. Sorry if it came across that way!

I just don't define lust as a want of power. To me that would be pride: wanting something for your build-up of yourself. I think of lust as wanting something as an object for use for your gratification, specifically in a sexual sense.

If you asked me which of the capital sins would I define as "a want for power," I would think of greed, pride, or envy first.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Nicole8223' date='Sep 23 2005, 01:30 PM']I wasn't accusing you of being one of those who assumes, Micah.  Sorry if it came across that way!

I just don't define lust as a want of power.  To me that would be pride: wanting something for your build-up of yourself.  I think of lust as wanting something as an object for use for your gratification, specifically in a sexual sense.

If you asked me which of the capital sins would I define as "a want for power," I would think of greed, pride, or envy first.
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...but we even use the term "lust for power" lol...

I would say that pride is found in all of these sins...in fact, I would venture to say that all the seven deadly sins are so intertwined that it's hard to have a situation where at least several are not present if one is.

However, lust is not merely carnal...that much is certain. Yes, it can be the case that women lust physically after men (I've seen it myself), but the tendency in women related to abusing men in regard to their manhood itself seems to fall more into the category of having "Mr. Right" to make others jealous, etc. This is most certainly prideful at its core, as all sin is, but since I would define lust primarily as that which abuses another in as much as their sexuality, then it is still a form of lust. It is, of course, involved with greed as well. Greed, however, seeks to take or possess something at the disadvantage of someone else. Greed speaks to the "wanting to make others jealous" because it says, "I have him and you don't!" It seems to me that greed in this situation is proper not to the social status part (which I was relating), but to the exclusivity part. Seeking social status, then, and having the right [i]man[/i] particularly in such a way that it's because he's a man, seems to be a form of lust, because the core of it is in having the right [i]man[/i] which makes it intrinsically sexual in nature. That is why I define it as lust and say that greed is related to the situation, but not proper to the specific sin I'm talking about.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 23 2005, 01:53 PM']...but we even use the term "lust for power" lol...

I would say that pride is found in all of these sins...in fact, I would venture to say that all the seven deadly sins are so intertwined that it's hard to have a situation where at least several are not present if one is.

However, lust is not merely carnal...that much is certain.  Yes, it can be the case that women lust physically after men (I've seen it myself), but the tendency in women related to abusing men in regard to their manhood itself seems to fall more into the category of having "Mr. Right" to make others jealous, etc.  This is most certainly prideful at its core, as all sin is, but since I would define lust primarily as that which abuses another in as much as their sexuality, then it is still a form of lust.  It is, of course, involved with greed as well.  Greed, however, seeks to take or possess something at the disadvantage of someone else.  Greed speaks to the "wanting to make others jealous" because it says, "I have him and you don't!"  It seems to me that greed in this situation is proper not to the social status part (which I was relating), but to the exclusivity part.  Seeking social status, then, and having the right [i]man[/i] particularly in such a way that it's because he's a man, seems to be a form of lust, because the core of it is in having the right [i]man[/i] which makes it intrinsically sexual in nature.  That is why I define it as lust and say that greed is related to the situation, but not proper to the specific sin I'm talking about.
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But what if I'm not looking for Mr. Right to make others jealous, or for personal material gain? I know I still lust. I just don't think that's the underlying cause of it.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Maria' date='Sep 22 2005, 10:04 PM']What Sojourner said sounds more like what I've heard (and even felt to some extent) -- the idea that feminine lust has to do with thinking some guy would make the perfect husband/lover, that with him she'd live happily ever after.[/quote]

That's not lust - that's naivete, or unrealistic expectations.

[quote]But I'd agree with Socrates that there definitely do seem to be some women who have the male kind of lust. But that seems more unnatural.
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That's called lesbianism.

Women can lust too - I've seen it firsthand.
Anytime a woman wants to fornicate or commit adultery or do anything lewd, she's acting lustfully.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 23 2005, 01:53 PM']...but we even use the term "lust for power" lol...

I would say that pride is found in all of these sins...in fact, I would venture to say that all the seven deadly sins are so intertwined that it's hard to have a situation where at least several are not present if one is.

However, lust is not merely carnal...that much is certain.  Yes, it can be the case that women lust physically after men (I've seen it myself), but the tendency in women related to abusing men in regard to their manhood itself seems to fall more into the category of having "Mr. Right" to make others jealous, etc.  This is most certainly prideful at its core, as all sin is, but since I would define lust primarily as that which abuses another in as much as their sexuality, then it is still a form of lust.  It is, of course, involved with greed as well.  Greed, however, seeks to take or possess something at the disadvantage of someone else.  Greed speaks to the "wanting to make others jealous" because it says, "I have him and you don't!"  It seems to me that greed in this situation is proper not to the social status part (which I was relating), but to the exclusivity part.  Seeking social status, then, and having the right [i]man[/i] particularly in such a way that it's because he's a man, seems to be a form of lust, because the core of it is in having the right [i]man[/i] which makes it intrinsically sexual in nature.  That is why I define it as lust and say that greed is related to the situation, but not proper to the specific sin I'm talking about.
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True, all the deadly sins are of course related (they mostly involve inordinate love of something other than God and neighbor), but they can be distinguished.
"Lust" as in "lust after power" is more of an analogy from the original meaning.

Lust = inordinate or disordered desire for sex
Greed (or Avarice) = inordinate or disordered desire for material gain.
Gluttony = inordinate or disordered desire for food or drink
Inordinate seeking of status would be tied to envy it seems to me.

[quote]Seeking social status, then, and having the right [i]man[/i] particularly in such a way that it's because he's a man, seems to be a form of lust, because the core of it is in having the right [i]man[/i] which makes it intrinsically sexual in nature.[/quote]

This is an absurd statement. By this definition, any desire for marriage would be lustful, because this involves in its core having a right man (or woman) as a man (or woman). Otherwise, there would be nothing wrong with same-sex marriage.
It is not desiring a person of the opposic sex specifically as a man or woman that would make it sinful, but the fact that this is done for one's own gain in status, rather than for love.
(This could also apply to non-sexual same-sex "friendships" -forming "friendships" for the purpose of using another for one's own personal gain.) The primary sin here is not lust.

[curtins]

wow this is all going right over my head

[Old_Joe]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 21 2005, 10:32 PM']Another is to see the person, indivisible, as only a part of a larger structure, much like one would see a single ant in an ant colony.

Likewise, it would seem that the "female lust" is the opposite, the second of these...that it takes a whole man and makes him only a part of something larger...a social status, a symbol of something to be proud of, etc.
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So, I'm confused more than usual. Are you basically saying that this kind of Lust make a person seem insignificant int the scheme of things?

[Old_Joe]

[quote name='curtins' date='Sep 23 2005, 09:51 PM']wow this is all going right over my head
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could be worse. It could be hitting below the belt.

[Old_Joe]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Sep 22 2005, 09:51 PM']Lust is simply the seeking of sexual pleasure outside the blessing of marriage.
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Not necessarily. A man can rape his own wife. Is that not Lust? He's satisfying his own needs without thinking of her well-being.

[Sojourner]

OK, let’s take a moment to define terms. In Matt. 5:28, Christ says, “Everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”

So a really simple definition consistent with this verse would be that lust is adultery committed in the heart.

In the Theology of the Body, John Paul II expands on this definition, drawing a distinction between the theological meaning of lust and the psychological meaning of lust.

I think the way Socrates defines lust:
[quote name='Socrates']Lust = inordinate or disordered desire for sex
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fits very well with the psychological meaning of lust JP2 describes:
An intense inclination toward the object because of its particular value, and in the case considered here, its sexual value.

Biblically defined, JPII says lust is
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He draws a further distinction between lust and natural attraction – and I think we can all identify moments in which we’ve experienced a good and natural attraction and moments when we’ve experienced lust. There is a difference.

In describing this difference, JPII says lust represents a reduction:
[quote name='JPII']an intentional reduction, almost a restriction or closing down of the horizon of mind and heart. It is one thing to be conscious that the value of sex is a part of all the rich storehouse of values with which the female appears to male. It is another to “reduce” all personal riches of femininity to a single value, that is, of sex, as a suitable object for the gratification of sexuality itself. The same reasoning can be valid concerning what masculinity is to the woman …
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Proper attraction, he goes on to say, frees a man (or presumably, a woman) to be more fully who he (or she) is, opening up the range of values that encompass the person. Lust limits that range to a single value, thus reducing the person.

Socrates, Old_Joe is right that lust can happen inside marriage as well as outside. Anytime you reduce the value of the person to being solely sexual, it's lust. Therefore, you can commit adultery, even with your wife. I know this happens. I've talked to women who say they've felt "used" by their husbands -- they could sense their husbands' advances were motivated by lust. Marriage doesn't make lust OK.