Of Penguins and People

[Theoketos]

I can see Kilroy's mind

<Must fight urge to [s]kill[/s] lock thread>


I kid I kid...


P.S. Kilroy is not really unjustly violent (as far as I know) though she has a bs detector more sensitive than any day time tv judge.

Edited September 21, 2005 by Theoketos

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='Theoketos' date='Sep 21 2005, 12:52 AM']I can see Kilroy's mind

<Must fight urge to [s]kill[/s] lock thread>
I kid I kid...
P.S. Kilroy is not really unjustly violent (as far as I know) though she has a bs detector more sensitive than any day time tv judge.
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[/quote]


And you know my detector gets a real work out.... (Love you DJ!)

[track2004]

I don't really see the point of arguing that homosexuality is in nature or it is how one was brought up. The reality we face is that it exists and it is not going to not exist. For whatever reason people are gay.

[RC_]

[quote name='Kilroy the Ninja' date='Sep 20 2005, 04:05 PM']Who cares if penguins are gay?

Really?
I mean, is this truly important?
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[/quote]

If penguins are gay, then my whole world-view is blown.

I have to retreat and re-examine my life.

[philothea]

[quote name='RC_' date='Sep 21 2005, 01:32 AM']If penguins are gay, then my whole world-view is blown.

I have to retreat and re-examine my life.
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[StatingTheObvious]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Sep 20 2005, 04:15 PM'][url="http://www.jrn.columbia.edu/studentwork/cns/2002-06-10/591.asp"]Gay penguins.[/url]

So a discussion about gay animals. That should be fun, right? And there's a lot of them too, you know. In pretty much all the species.

I'll assume for a moment that God exists.

Most animals operate by instinct alone (but not all) and since God is the creator of everything, including all the animals, God also created the instincts of all the animals. Since the mating and sexual behavior of these animals is determined by their instinct, it follows that whatever they do in these areas is determined by God. This would include homosexual behavior.

There are homosexual animals. Those that operate by instinct alone can't be affected by any psychological problems. Therefore their tendency for homosexual behavior is innate and not affected by later enviromental factors. Now, if it can happen to animals, then there is no reason it can't happen for humans also. This shows that theories that say homosexuality is caused by childhood traumas, bad parenting, etc, are clearly wrong. And since it is innate and not related to free-will, it is by necessity created by God.

Therefore, if God exists, homosexual behavior can't be immoral or wrong.
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[/quote]mutants exist too so they must be considered not-mutant, but just another normal creature God created.

[Sirklawd]

It's most certainly chartible to point out that its rediculous for homosexuals to compare themselves to penquins or anyother animal when their point is to say "we are just like any other HUMAN". If i didnt want to be charitable i wouldnt say anything and let them make geniuses of themselves.

humans are NOT animals.

[Didacus]

The argument at hand strikes at the definition of 'natural law'. Does this law include homosexuality or not? How do homosexulas define this 'natural law'?

Taking Semalsia's logic:

God created animals

God gave them instincts

All that God creates is good

Within those instincts is 'homosexual behavior'

Animals do not have the power of choice we human's do, thus cannot 'choose' to be gay.

Thus, God, in a sense, 'choose' for the animals (some) to be gay.

Since God is 100% goodness, and God chooses to have gay animals, being gay is not wrong nor immoral.

(feel free to correct me if I am mistaken in your logic Semalsia)



To defeat the argument, we need to point where the above logic is mistaken.

'I believe double effect lies at the core of the error of logic. God is good, yet evil exists? But since God can only create good things, evil is thus good. God created pinguins, pinguins are gay, thus being gay cannot be evil.'

The replies vs double effect can get pretty complicated and I won't mention it further in this post other than saying that double effect does not, at its conclusion, link God with evil, nor as far as pinguins are concerned, link the Allmighty with homosexuality.

[Aloysius]

the error more lies in the fact that there really is no observable homosexual relationships in nature. there is random homosexual sex to be sure, but there is no homosexual relationships. the only candidate, penguins, don't even have sex. they just try to hatch rocks, and when given a real egg they hatch it and raise it together. but the penguins aren't having sex, they're looking for a family. a family with two dads who are nothing more than very committed friends seeing as how they don't have sex.

[Sirklawd]

ill bite

this logic doesnt take into account where evil comes from. Evil, by definition is not good. So either God created evil, and it really isnt evil but good. or God didnt create evil. (which we believe. evil is the absence of God)

Humans are tempted toward evil all the time. except we have the ability to make the choice to not succumb. Animals are all "instinct" they have no choice. Who's to say evil doesnt also effect them. They have no power though. They are like a boat without a paddle unable to do anything by drift in the sea of nature and reep of the benifits of any evil or good that may happen. (since they have no concept of "evil" or "good" they dont really care anyway).

humans have paddles. we also have a crew, a huge strong boat, we can even get supergraded sails to catch and sail upon with good wind of god. we have all these options and the ability to choose to use them. we also have an understanding of how things are. of good and evil.

while we are in the same ocean where evil make try to move us, we are not only conscious of it, but can fight against it.

did i get it? that make sense?

[Sirklawd]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Sep 21 2005, 10:29 AM']the error more lies in the fact that there really is no observable homosexual relationships in nature.  there is random homosexual sex to be sure, but there is no homosexual relationships.  the only candidate, penguins, don't even have sex.  they just try to hatch rocks, and when given a real egg they hatch it and raise it together.  but the penguins aren't having sex, they're looking for a family.  a family with two dads who are nothing more than very committed friends seeing as how they don't have sex.
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like Full House!

best. show. ever.


ps: i would also like to point out that im not saying that its some easy task to just choose not to act/think upon homosexual urges. not at all!! its all so very hard, and we all need help.

Edited September 21, 2005 by Sirklawd

[hierochloe]

I used to raise birds - finches to be precise. When the sex ratio in the population became significantly disporportionate, males (or females depending on which way the pop. was swinging) began nesting together, and yes, having sex. Heh, and me ten years old wondeing at my crazy gay birds. Yet, I [i]never[/i] observed this when there was a female for every male.

I've also observed bulls (bovine) attempt sex on each other in the presence of cows. That was wierd. It may have been an exhibition of dominance (as in dogs), but I had never heard of bovines using mounting for that.

One can observe all kinds of crazy things in nature. Still, one must be careful how they analyze relationships between these things and humanity.

[Didacus]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Sep 21 2005, 10:29 AM']the error more lies in the fact that there really is no observable homosexual relationships in nature.  there is random homosexual sex to be sure, but there is no homosexual relationships.  the only candidate, penguins, don't even have sex.  they just try to hatch rocks, and when given a real egg they hatch it and raise it together.  but the penguins aren't having sex, they're looking for a family.  a family with two dads who are nothing more than very committed friends seeing as how they don't have sex.
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You are attacking a premise, though I believe you weaken it you do not entirely remove it.

Apes, gorillas in particular, have been recorded as acting on homosexual instincts at times (while in the wild). Though I believe you are correct that it is not a widespread phenomena, it does exist, and thus the premise (though weakened) remains.

I agree that basing human acceptable behavior on animal behavior is foolhardy and a desperate ploy to justify perversed behaviors, however, several gay activist firmly believe they have a seed of supportable logic based on relativism (when you remove the absolute - God, from the equation, relatively everything sooner or later becomes acceptable). This is also the same kind of relative logic which is slowly beginning to support pedophilia.

Brave new world we live in my friend! Brave now world!
(I'm actually in the process of purchasing a first edition of that book by Steinbeck)

(notice the smiley is not upside down: your screen is. this smiley is perfectly normal)


Sirklawd: Yes i believe you've got the main idea within your post (the reply to double effect is indeed summed in the fact the evil does exist and this is consistent with Catholic beliefs, though the explanation of evil's non-existance can be a laborious one.

[Didacus]

[quote name='hierochloe' date='Sep 21 2005, 12:13 PM']I used to raise birds - [snip]

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Well ok, if we want personnal experiences:

My sister (yes, the lawyer one) had a coupld of male doves which she kept in a cage of course, and they regularly indulged in sexual behaviors between them.

The phenomena does exist, its explanation is still up in the air as far as i am concerned.

[hierochloe]

Lol, I was only supporting what you said in the end, that the premise is only weakened. Animals do gay stuff, and I happen to have observed it personally. Nevertheless, I don't think it should be used to support homosexual activity in humans.

[quote]when you remove the absolute - God, from the equation, relatively everything sooner or later becomes acceptable[/quote]

So true.