THis should be in the debate table

[Aloysius]

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-I---Love Posted: Nov 28 2003, 06:24 PM

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...so does anyone have any new thoughts or support for or against women being ordained Priests in the Catholic Church? I say NEW because I have already, 100 times, heard that "we do not have the authority to ordain women in the Priesthood," and that "all of Jesus' 12 apostles were men..."

If anyone can find for me the passage pertaining to women deacons in the New Testament please let me know because I lost my spot and cannot find it to no avail. (not 1 Timothy)

Also, if anyone has ever personally or knows someone who senses a call to the Priesthood that is a women I'd be interested in hearing the story.

I am not looking for a debate, but rather TONS OF INFORMATION, BOTH for AND against the issue.

Thanks ...

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musturde Posted: Nov 28 2003, 06:37 PM

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The mother of God wasn't a priest. Since Mother Mary wasn't a priestess and we can't compare ourselves to her how can we expect girls to be priestess'? (btw its a big tradition since about ad 30)

jmjtina Posted: Nov 28 2003, 06:47 PM

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New thoughts on the subject? Actually the new thoughts are the same as the old ones, Women are not called to the priesthood.

However I know girls my own age (some on this board) who feel God is calling them to service in a special way. However this service is one of a nun, or a sister in a convent. Women are not called to the priesthood, men are.

Women in the Priesthood

Gen. 3:15; Luke 1:26-55; John 19:26; Rev. 12:1- Mary is God's greatest creation, was the closest person to Jesus, and yet Jesus did not choose her to become a priest.

Mark 16:9; Luke 7: 37-50; John 8:3-11 - Jesus allowed women to uniquely join in His mission, exalting them above cultural norms. His decision not to ordain women had nothing to due with culture. The Gospel writers are also clear that women participated in Jesus' ministry and, unlike men, never betrayed Jesus. Women have always been held with the highest regard in the Church (e.g., the Church's greatest saint and model of faith is a woman; the Church's constant teaching on the dignity of motherhood; the Church's understanding of humanity as being the Bride united to Christ, etc.).

Mark 14:17,20; Luke 22:14 - the language "the twelve" and "apostles" shows Jesus commissioned the Eucharistic priesthood by giving holy orders only to men.

Gen. 14:10; Heb. 5:6,10; 6:20; 7:15,17 - Jesus, the Son of God, is both priest and King after the priest-king Melchizedek. Jesus' priesthood embodies both Kingship and Sonship.

Gen. 22:9-13 - as foreshadowed, God chose our redemption to be secured by the sacrificial love that the Son gives to the Father.

Matt. 26:26; Mark 14:22; Luke 22:19 - because the priest acts in persona Christi in the offering to the Father, the priest cannot be a woman.

Mark 3:13 - Jesus selected the apostles "as He desired," according to His will, and not according to the demands of His culture. Because Jesus acted according to His will which was perfectly united to that of the Father, one cannot criticize Jesus' selection of men to be His priests without criticizing God.

John 20:22 - Jesus only breathed on the male apostles, the first bishops, giving them the authority to forgive and retain sins. In fact, the male priesthood of Christianity was a distinction from the priestesses of paganism that existed during these times. A female priesthood would be a reversion to non-Christian practices. The sacred tradition of male priesthood has existed uncompromised in the Church for over 2,000 years.

1 Cor. 14:34-35 - Paul says a woman is not permitted to preach the word of God in the Church. It has always been the tradition of the Church for the priest or deacon alone (an ordained male) to read and preach the Gospel.

1 Tim. 2:12 - Paul also says that a woman is not permitted to hold teaching authority in the Church.

Rom. 16:1-2 - while many Protestants point to this verse denounce the Church's tradition of a male priesthood, deaconesses, like Phoebe, were helpers to the priests (for example, preparing women for naked baptism so as to prevent scandal). But these helpers were never ordained.

Luke 2:36-37 - prophetesses, like Anna, were women who consecrated themselves to religious life, but were not ordained.

Check out this article on women deacons:

Women Deacons

from Catholic Answers:

The Fathers rejected female ordination, not because it was incompatible with Christian culture, but because it was incompatible with Christian faith. Thus, together with biblical declarations, the teaching of the Fathers on this issue formed the tradition of the Church that taught that priestly ordination was reserved to men. Throughout medieval times and even up until the present day, this teaching has not changed.

Further, in 1994 Pope John Paul II formally declared that the Church does not have the power to ordain women. He stated, "Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church’s judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force. Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Luke 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4).

And in 1995 the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in conjunction with the pope, ruled that this teaching "requires definitive assent, since, founded on the written Word of God, and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied in the tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal magisterium (cf. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium 25:2)" (Response of Oct. 25, 1995).

I hope that helps I love!!!!!

much peace and LOVE!!!!

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musturde Posted: Nov 28 2003, 06:50 PM

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Don't anglicans allow female priests?

nikkan_hanil Posted: Nov 28 2003, 07:00 PM

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Anyone heard of the "Old Catholic Church"? It's a church based on the church, has almost everything that the real Catholic church believes in, but a long time ago, I read an article on this "Old Catholic Church" saying that they were going to ordain their first woman preist.

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Ellenita Posted: Nov 28 2003, 07:23 PM

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QUOTE

Don't anglicans allow female priests?

Yes, they do and nearly split the church as a result. A number of people from the 'catholic tradition' within the church left, (some joined the Catholic church) and there are bishops who will not ordain women so it really does depend on finding a bishop who will.

It's funny, I would call myself a feminist, believe very strongly that women have a right to equality of opportunity, and have real issues about the (lack of) roles ascribed to women in the church, but I would not choose to attend a church led by a woman priest!

foundsheep Posted: Nov 28 2003, 07:28 PM

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QUOTE (nikkan_hanil @ Nov 28 2003, 06:00 PM)

Anyone heard of the "Old Catholic Church"? It's a church based on the church, has almost everything that the real Catholic church believes in, but a long time ago, I read an article on this "Old Catholic Church" saying that they were going to ordain their first woman preist.

It can never have the churches authority. Our authoritative seat is in Rome with John Paul, so they can ordain all they want but it will not be recognized.

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hyperdulia again Posted: Nov 28 2003, 08:43 PM

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this subject is FORBIDDEN

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nikkan_hanil Posted: Nov 28 2003, 08:51 PM

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QUOTE (foundsheep @ Nov 28 2003, 08:28 PM)

QUOTE (nikkan_hanil @ Nov 28 2003, 06:00 PM)

Anyone heard of the "Old Catholic Church"? It's a church based on the church, has almost everything that the real Catholic church believes in, but a long time ago, I read an article on this "Old Catholic Church" saying that they were going to ordain their first woman preist.

It can never have the churches authority. Our authoritative seat is in Rome with John Paul, so they can ordain all they want but it will not be recognized.

Yes, that is correct. I forgot to mention that it does not recognize the Papal authority, so nothing, all their practices and stuff are in vain because it is not under the true establishment of tha Rock.

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nikkan_hanil Posted: Nov 28 2003, 08:52 PM

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QUOTE (hyperdulia again @ Nov 28 2003, 09:43 PM)

this subject is FORBIDDEN

How so?

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hyperdulia again Posted: Nov 28 2003, 08:53 PM

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we are forbidden to discuss this

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"I don't need no one to tell me about heaven

I look at my daughter, and I believe.

I don't need no proof when it comes to God and truth

I can see the sunset and I perceive

I sit with them all night

everything they say is right

but in the morning they were wrong

I'll be right by your side

come hell or water high

down any road you choose to roam

I'll believe it when I see it for myself"--Live

hyperdulia again Posted: Nov 28 2003, 08:54 PM

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by the holy father

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"I don't need no one to tell me about heaven

I look at my daughter, and I believe.

I don't need no proof when it comes to God and truth

I can see the sunset and I perceive

I sit with them all night

everything they say is right

but in the morning they were wrong

I'll be right by your side

come hell or water high

down any road you choose to roam

I'll believe it when I see it for myself"--Live

nikkan_hanil Posted: Nov 28 2003, 08:58 PM

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QUOTE (hyperdulia again @ Nov 28 2003, 09:54 PM)

by the holy father

Fo' real?

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Joyful Posted: Nov 28 2003, 08:59 PM

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We're forbidden to discuss it? I don't doubt you, but where did you get this information?

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morostheos Posted: Nov 28 2003, 09:12 PM

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A good article about why women aren't allowed to be priests is by Robert Novak, called "Women, Ordination and Angels"

http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9304...cles/novak.html

This article addresses why tradition has been that women can't be priests. The reasons why don't have any doctrinal authority, but I thought they were very good, and it helped me to understand the topic more thoroughly.

I think we're allowed to read articles about why women can't be priests, we're just not supposed to discuss if they can or not.

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[Aloysius]

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Katholikos Posted: Nov 28 2003, 09:53 PM

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QUOTE (Joyful @ Nov 28 2003, 08:59 PM)

We're forbidden to discuss it? I don't doubt you, but where did you get this information?

APOSTOLIC LETTER

ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS

OF JOHN PAUL II

TO THE BISHOPS

OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

ON RESERVING PRIESTLY ORDINATION

TO MEN ALONE

Venerable Brothers in the Episcopate,

1. Priestly ordination, which hands on the office entrusted by Christ to his Apostles of teaching, sanctifying and governing the faithful, has in the Catholic Church from the beginning always been reserved to men alone. This tradition has also been faithfully maintained by the Oriental Churches.

When the question of the ordination of women arose in the Anglican Communion, Pope Paul VI, out of fidelity to his office of safeguarding the Apostolic Tradition, and also with a view to removing a new obstacle placed in the way of Christian unity, reminded Anglicans of the position of the Catholic Church: "She holds that it is not admissible to ordain women to the priesthood, for very fundamental reasons. These reasons include: the example recorded in the Sacred Scriptures of Christ choosing his Apostles only from among men; the constant practice of the Church, which has imitated Christ in choosing only men; and her living teaching authority which has consistently held that the exclusion of women from the priesthood is in accordance with God's plan for his Church."(1)

But since the question had also become the subject of debate among theologians and in certain Catholic circles, Paul VI directed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to set forth and expound the teaching of the Church on this matter. This was done through the Declaration Inter Insigniores, which the Supreme Pontiff approved and ordered to be published.(2)

2. The Declaration recalls and explains the fundamental reasons for this teaching, reasons expounded by Paul VI, and concludes that the Church "does not consider herself authorized to admit women to priestly ordination."(3) To these fundamental reasons the document adds other theological reasons which illustrate the appropriateness of the divine provision, and it also shows clearly that Christ's way of acting did not proceed from sociological or cultural motives peculiar to his time. As Paul VI later explained: "The real reason is that, in giving the Church her fundamental constitution, her theological anthropology-thereafter always followed by the Church's Tradition- Christ established things in this way."(4)

In the Apostolic Letter Mulieris Dignitatem, I myself wrote in this regard: "In calling only men as his Apostles, Christ acted in a completely free and sovereign manner. In doing so, he exercised the same freedom with which, in all his behavior, he emphasized the dignity and the vocation of women, without conforming to the prevailing customs and to the traditions sanctioned by the legislation of the time."(5)

In fact the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles attest that this call was made in accordance with God's eternal plan; Christ chose those whom he willed (cf. Mk 3:13-14; Jn 6:70), and he did so in union with the Father, "through the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:2), after having spent the night in prayer (cf. Lk 6:12). Therefore, in granting admission to the ministerial priesthood,(6) the Church has always acknowledged as a perennial norm her Lord's way of acting in choosing the twelve men whom he made the foundation of his Church (cf. Rv 21:14). These men did not in fact receive only a function which could thereafter be exercised by any member of the Church; rather they were specifically and intimately associated in the mission of the Incarnate Word himself (cf. Mt 10:1, 7-8; 28:16-20; Mk 3:13-16; 16:14-15). The Apostles did the same when they chose fellow workers(7) who would succeed them in their ministry.(8) Also included in this choice were those who, throughout the time of the Church, would carry on the Apostles' mission of representing Christ the Lord and Redeemer.(9)

3. Furthermore, the fact that the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God and Mother of the Church, received neither the mission proper to the Apostles nor the ministerial priesthood clearly shows that the non-admission of women to priestly ordination cannot mean that women are of lesser dignity, nor can it be construed as discrimination against them. Rather, it is to be seen as the faithful observance of a plan to be ascribed to the wisdom of the Lord of the universe.

The presence and the role of women in the life and mission of the Church, although not linked to the ministerial priesthood, remain absolutely necessary and irreplaceable. As the Declaration Inter Insigniores points out, "the Church desires that Christian women should become fully aware of the greatness of their mission: today their role is of capital importance both for the renewal and humanization of society and for the rediscovery by believers of the true face of the Church."(10)

The New Testament and the whole history of the Church give ample evidence of the presence in the Church of women, true disciples, witnesses to Christ in the family and in society, as well as in total consecration to the service of God and of the Gospel. "By defending the dignity of women and their vocation, the Church has shown honor and gratitude for those women who-faithful to the Gospel-have shared in every age in the apostolic mission of the whole People of God. They are the holy martyrs, virgins and mothers of families, who bravely bore witness to their faith and passed on the Church's faith and tradition by bringing up their children in the spirit of the Gospel."(11)

Moreover, it is to the holiness of the faithful that the hierarchical structure of the Church is totally ordered. For this reason, the Declaration Inter Insigniores recalls: "the only better gift, which can and must be desired, is love (cf. 1 Cor 12 and 13). The greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven are not the ministers but the saints."(12)

4. Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the Magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church's judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force.

Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful.

Invoking an abundance of divine assistance upon you, venerable brothers, and upon all the faithful, I impart my apostolic blessing.

From the Vatican, on May 22, the Solemnity of Pentecost, in the year 1994, the sixteenth of my Pontificate.

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nikkan_hanil Posted: Nov 28 2003, 09:58 PM

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Ahh yes...because the topic is closed and dismissed there is no need for debate. Further debating might cause more trouble. It's like shutting somebody up after the decision is made to ensure that you don't hear any more complaining and questions and stuff.

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Katholikos Posted: Nov 28 2003, 10:19 PM

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Letter

October 28, 1995

Concerning the CDF Reply

Regarding Ordinatio Sacerdotalis

Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

Prefect, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

The publication of the Reply of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to a dubium regarding the reason for which the teaching contained in the Apostolic Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is to be considered definitive tenenda seems the appropriate moment to offer certain reflections.

The ecclesiological significance of this Apostolic Letter was underscored even by its date of publication, for it was on that day, May 22, 1994, that the Church celebrated the Solemnity of Pentecost. Its importance, however, could be discovered above all in the concluding words of the Letter: "in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful" (n. 4).

The Pope's intervention was necessary not simply to reiterate the validity of a discipline observed in the Church from the beginning, but to confirm a doctrine "preserved by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the Magisterium in its more recent documents," which "pertains to the Church's divine consitution itself" (n. 4). In this way, the Holy Father intended to make clear that the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved solely to men could not be considered "open to debate" and neither could one attribute to the decision of the Church "a merely disciplinary force" (ibid).

The fruits of this Letter have been evident since its publication. Many consciences which in good faith had been disturbed, more by doubt than by uncertainty, found serenity once again thanks to the teaching of the Holy Father. However, some perplexity continued, not only among those who, distant from the Catholic faith, do not accept the existence of a doctrinal authority within the Church -- that is, a Magisterium sacramentally invested with the authority of Christ (cf. Lumen Gentium, 21) -- but also among some of the faithful to whom it continued to seem that the exclusion of women from the priestly ministry represents a form of injustice or discrimination against them. Some objected that it is not evident from Revelation that such an exclusion was the will of Christ for his Church, and others had questions concerning the assent owed to the Letter.

Certainly, the understanding of the reasons for which the Church does not have the power to confer priestly ordination on women can be deepened further. Such reasons, for example, have been set out already in the Declaration Inter Insigniores (October 15, 1976), issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and approved by Pope Paul VI, and in a number of the documents of John Paul II (for example, Christifideles Laici, 51; Mulieris Dignitatem, 26), as well as in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, No. 1577). But in any case it cannot be forgotten that the Church teaches, as an absolutely fundamental truth of Christian anthropology, the equal personal dignity of men and women, and the necessity of overcoming and doing away with "every type of discrimination regarding fundamental rights" (Gaudium et Spes, 29). It is in the light of this truth that one can seek to understand better the teaching that women cannot receive priestly ordination. A correct theology can prescind neither from one nor from the other of these doctrines, but must hold the two together; only thus will it be able to deepen our comprehension of God's plan regarding woman and regarding the priesthood -- and hence, regarding the mission of woman in the Church. If however, perhaps by allowing oneself to be conditioned too much by the ways and spirit of the age, one should assert that a contradiction exists between these two truths, the way of progress in the intelligence of the faith would be lost.

In the Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis the Pope focuses attention on the figu of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, and Mother of the Church. The fact that she "received neither the mission proper to the Apostles nor the ministerial priesthood clearly shows that the non-admission of women to priestly ordination cannot mean that women are of lesser dignity, nor can it be construed as discrimination against them" (n. 3). Diversity of mission in no way compromises equality of personal dignity.

Furthermore, to understand that this teaching implies no injustice or discrimination against women, one has to consider the nature of the ministerial priesthood itself, which is a service and not a position of privilege or human power over others. Whoever, man or woman, conceives of the priesthood in terms of personal affirmation, as a goal or point of departure in a career of human success, is profoundly mistaken, for the true meaning of Christian priesthood, whether it be the common priesthood of the faithful or, in a most special way, the ministerial priesthood, can only be found in the sacrifice of one's own being in union with Christ, in service of the brethren. Priestly ministry constitutes neither the universal ideal nor, even less, the goal of Christian life. In this connection, it is helpful to recall once again that "the only higher gift, which can and must be desired, is charity" (cf. 1 Cor. 12:13; Inter Insigniores).

With respect to its foundation in Sacred Scripture and in Tradition, John Paul II directs his attention to the fact that the Lord Jesus, as is witnessed by the New Testament, called only men, and not women, to the ordained ministry, and that the Apostles "did the same when they chose fellow workers who would succeed them in their ministry" (n. 2; cf. 1 Tim. 3:1ff; 2 Tim. 1:6; Tit. 1:5). There are sound arguments supporting the fact that Christ's way of acting was not determined by cultural motives (cf. n. 2), as there are also sufficient grounds to state that Tradition has interpreted the choice made by the Lord as binding for the Church of all times.

Here, however, we find ourselves before the essential interdependence of Holy Scripture and Tradition, an interdependence which makes of these two forms of the transmission of the Gospel an unbreakable unity with the Magisterium, which is an integral part of Tradition and is entrusted with the authentic interpretation of the Word of God, written and handed down (Dei Verbum, 9 and 10). In the specific case of priestly ordination, the successors of the Apostles have always observed the norm of conferring it only on men, and the Magisterium, assisted by the Holy Spirit, teaches us that this did not occur by chance, habitual repetition, subjection to sociological conditioning, or even less because of some imaginary inferiority of women; but rather because "the Church has always acknowledged as a perennial norm her Lord's way of acting in choosing the twelve men whom he made the foundation of his Church" (n. 2).

As is well known, there are reasons ex convenientia by which theology has sought and seeks to understand the reasonableness of the will of the Lord. Such reasons, expounded for example in the Declaration Inter Insigniores, have their undoubted value, and yet they are not conceived or employed as if they were strictly logical proofs derived from absolute principles. At the same time, it is important to keep in mind, as these reasons help us to comprehend, that the human will of Christ not only is not arbitrary, but that it is intimately united with the divine will of the eternal Son, on which the ontological and anthropological truth of the creation of the two sexes depends.

In response to this precise act of the Magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, explicitly addressed to the entire Catholic Church, all members of the faithful are required to give their assent to the teaching stated therein. To this end, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, with the approval of the Holy Father, has given an official Reply on the nature of this assent; it is a matter of full definitive assent, that is to say, irrevocable, to a doctrine taught infallibly by the Church. In fact, as the Reply explains, the definitive nature of this assent derives from the truth of the doctrine itself, since, founded on the written Word of God, and constantly held and applied in the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary universal Magisterium (cf. Lumen Gentium, 25). Thus, the Reply specifies that this doctrine belongs to the deposit of the faith of the Church. It should be emphasized that the definitive and infallible nature of this teaching of the Church did not arise with the publication of the Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis. In the Letter, as the Reply of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith also explains, the Roman Pontiff, having taken account of present circumstances, has confirmed the same teaching by a formal declaration, giving expression once again to quod semper, quod ubique et quod ab omnibus tenendum est, utpote ad fidei depositum pertinens. In this case, an act of the ordinary Papal Magisterium, in itself not infallible, witnesses to the infallibility of the teaching of a doctrine already possessed by the Church.

Finally, there have been some commentaries on the Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis which have suggested that the document constitutes an additional and inopportune obstacle on the already difficult path of ecumenism. In this regard, it should not be forgotten that according to both the letter and the spirit of the Second Vatican Council (cf. Unitatis Redintegratio, 11), the authentic ecumenical task, to which the Catholic Church is unequivocally and permanently committed, requires complete sincerity and clarity in the presentation of one's own faith. Furthermore, it should be noted that the doctrine reaffirmed by the Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis cannot but further the pursuit of full communion with the Orthodox Churches which, in fidelity to Tradition, have maintained and continue to maintain the same teaching.

The singular originality of the Church and of the priestly ministry within the Church requires a precise clarity of criteria. Concretely, one must never lose sight of the fact that the Church does not find the source of her faith and her constitutive structure in the principles of the social order of any historical period. While attentive to the world in which she lives and for whose salvation she labours, the Church is conscious of being the bearer of a higher fidelity to which she is bound. It is a question of a radical faithfulness to the Word of God which she has received from Christ who established her to last until the end of the ages. This Word of God, in proclaiming the essential value and eternal destiny of every person, reveals the ultimate foundation of the dignity of every human being, of every woman and of every man.

+ Joseph Card. Ratzinger

Prefect

12/7/95

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My avatar is Blessed Father Damien, the "Leper Priest" of Molokai, Hawaii, who was my spiritual companion during my long journey from atheism to the Catholic Church. I went to court and changed my last name to Damien in his honor. Blessed Damien, pray for us!

"Where the bishop appears, there let the people be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."

Ignatius of Antioch (student of St. John the Apostle), 107 A.D.

Paladin D Posted: Nov 28 2003, 10:33 PM

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I'm against ordaining women to the priesthood.

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Katholikos Posted: Nov 28 2003, 10:56 PM

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QUOTE (nikkan_hanil @ Nov 28 2003, 09:58 PM)

Ahh yes...because the topic is closed and dismissed there is no need for debate. Further debating might cause more trouble. It's like shutting somebody up after the decision is made to ensure that you don't hear any more complaining and questions and stuff.

Infallible doctrines are closed to debate. This is an infallible doctrine. If one is Catholic, one must say with St. Augustine,

Roma locuta est, causa finita est.

Rome has spoken, the case is closed.

I believe everything the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church teaches . . . from the Profession of Faith. A person is free not to believe any Church teaching, of course, in which case they are, by definition, not Catholic. Catholicism is a package deal. All or nothing at all. The Catholic Church speaks for God. We can't pick and choose among doctrines -- "I'll have some of this one but none of that." Either one accepts the authority of the Church or one does not.

This belongs on the Debate Table, don'tchathink?

We've argued this subject many times, and are always glad to argue it again.

JMJ Likos

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My avatar is Blessed Father Damien, the "Leper Priest" of Molokai, Hawaii, who was my spiritual companion during my long journey from atheism to the Catholic Church. I went to court and changed my last name to Damien in his honor. Blessed Damien, pray for us!

"Where the bishop appears, there let the people be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."

Ignatius of Antioch (student of St. John the Apostle), 107 A.D.

Joyful Posted: Nov 28 2003, 11:08 PM

PM Peep

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For the record... I'm totally against the ordination of women as well I just didn't realize we weren't to engage on a debate about the topic.

Thanks for the clarification!

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"Christ is knocking very hard at many hearts, looking for young people like you to send into the vineyard where an abundant harvest is ready."

-Pope John Paul II, World Youth Day, Denver, 1993

BLAZEr Posted: Nov 29 2003, 12:16 AM

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I think there needs to be some clarification. The Holy Father has not forbidden catholics to speak on this issue. The issue is closed in as much as it is not open to theological speculation as to whether woman can or should be ordained.

It is certainly not forbidden for us to explain why women CANNOT be ordained. Why only men can be priests, and it is ENCOURAGED in Pastores Dabo Vobis for theologians, priests, and the lay faithful to more fully describe the priesthood and the theological underpinnings of its role and purpose. This would, by necessity, include reasons why Priests are men.

Also, the Church encourages us to foster discussion as to the role of women in society and in the Church. However, we are not to do this so as to engage in a polemic as to why women should be ordained priests.

This topic is NOT forbidden, but it is not OPEN to change. We cannot talk about it if we're talking about it AS IF IT WERE AN OPEN QUESTION WITHOUT A DEFINITIVE ANSWER. The Question is Answered, in the negative. Women cannot be priests. Men can be priests.

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"Tell us straight out that you do not believe in the Gospel of Christ; for you believe what you want in the Gospel and disbelieve what you want. You believe in yourself rather than in the Gospel."

--St. Augustine

"Fight all error, but do it with good humor, patience, kindness, and love. Harshness will damage your own soul and spoil the best cause."

-- St. John of Kanty.

"About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they're just one thing, and we shouldn't complicate the matter. "

-- Saint Jeanne d'Arc

Aloysius Posted: Nov 29 2003, 05:11 AM

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yeah, i know you wanted info FOR and AGAINST, sorry u just got info AGAINST, that's just cause phatmassers don't give info out that leads ppl astray

like St. Augustine Said, like Likos said, Rome has spoken, the case is closed. <Sermon 131:10>

if you go into the reading room, theres a section "debates from the Phorum"

it says that there are new debates coming soon, but it appears to be untrue, as the women's ordination 1 has been the only 1 there FOREVER.

anyway, it's strange. ppl criticize the Church when She claims to have authority to do stuff like teach infallibly. they also cricize her when she claims not to have the authority to ordain women.

could you imagine a woman priest saying mass? they would act in persona Christi? say "This is my body"???!!! I WOULD THROW UP! seriously.

Judeo-Christianity has male priests. FOR SIX THOUSAND YEARS. who the hell would we think we were to go against 6000 years of what GOD has done for His ppl. it's not just that Jesus ordained men, it's that God ordained men, from ancient times. men have always been priests. just like women have always been mothers. there has never been a preistess in 6000 years, God would have one pretty messed up plan to wait until now, well not even now since the current Pope will not allow it <infallibly i might add>, but wait until some time in the future to start doin it. It's much deeper than anything any secular nut out there or any religious person who just doesn't know any better could possilbly realize. it goes back to the creation of man and woman, the way they were created. men lay the seed and women nurture it. men and women are equal just different. the alpha, the omega, the way it has been from the begining and the way it will be till the end. the ministerial and religious priesthood is reserved for the men.

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"The clouds roll with thunder so that the house of the LORD shall be built throughout the earth. And these frogs sit in the marsh and croak 'We are the only Christians!'"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ St Augustine~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Aloysius Posted: Nov 29 2003, 10:03 AM

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i kinda pushed this thread around wit my lil first page filler fiasco.

so,,, um... BUMP!

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"The clouds roll with thunder so that the house of the LORD shall be built throughout the earth. And these frogs sit in the marsh and croak 'We are the only Christians!'"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ St Augustine~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[VeraMaria]

aha.

now i'm confused with who said what

maybe u should ask dust to move it over here with the normal posts and all!

[Aloysius]

hmmm, nah thad be too complicated. maybe they should just keep talkin in open mic.

w/e. if someone wants to tallk about it in the debate table they kan here. if not, i'll allow debate in the USOMP just this once, next time ask my permission though :P

[Azriel]

Well since the original poster said they weren't looking for debate ... just info, why would ya move it???

:P

[ironmonk]

Women can never be priests... there have been female decons...

Debate Over Ordination of Women Seen Producing a Deep Rift

German Bishop Talks of "a Sort of Mental Ecclesial Schism"

MURCIA, Spain, NOV. 28, 2003 (Zenit.org).- Far from being a "power structure," the Church has a sacramental character willed by Christ and therefore lacks the authority "to confer the priesthood to women," says a German bishop.

Bishop Gerhard Ludwig Müller of Regensburg delivered that message Thursday at the opening of the academic year of the Catholic University of Murcia.

Noting that women's ordination is a conflictive issue, Bishop Muller said that "the attitude of the Church is not based on distrust in the capacities of women." Rather, it is "an important issue that affects the divine constitution of the Church," he said.

"Every Catholic Christian has the right to information on what is the real motive given in the substance of the sacrament of orders -- which the ecclesiastic magisterium cannot decide either," he added.

"This means that the bishop is tied not only by a disposition of a disciplinary order," he continued. "In the theological plane, this indicates that a sacramental rite eventually carried out would have no sacramental-spiritual effect whatsoever and that the action of ordination would be ineffective before God."

Given this fact, "it doesn't make much sense to wait for the Holy Spirit to give a 'solution' at a future time," the bishop said.

"Every attentive observer can perceive, at least in some countries of Western Europe, a sort of mental ecclesial schism," he lamented.

"Precisely on the topic [of] women in the Church, a resentful state of mind is obvious, which offers very few opportunities to establish a frank dialogue and an objective argument. Under the one organizational roof of the Catholic Church, two ecclesiologies cohabit today which already seem incompatible," the bishop continued.

The "idea -- theologically correct -- that we are the community of those who believe in Christ and form his Church, seems to have given way to the opinion that the Church is our property and that its Creed -- as if it were a party program -- must always be approved again by assemblies of delegates taking as their guideline the degree of attraction for the voters," he added.

For Bishop Müller, these differences within the Church on certain matters has reached a limit.

"It is not about trying to know who is right, or wins in the end," he said, "but of knowing what Revelation contains, to which man opens and submits himself in faith by the power of the Spirit of God."

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Then read this...

http://www.catholic.com/library/Women_and_the_Priesthood.asp

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[Muschi]

This should have been a "non-issue" years ago, or rather, it should never have becme an issue. Let all understand that I am a woman who writes this.

Women: I believe we are all called but especially us women, to imitate the perfectly humble example of Mary.

Second, remember when James and d'oh! I forgot the other apostle's name just now because I have a cat in need to tend to at the sudden moment......but they were arguing who would be greater?............?

Women know this! We have already been called to a very high position of dignity in this life. WE can give birth to new life whereas men can only "plant the seed". Kinda like Paul's story of the conversion of others. But the seed (in the natural side of things develops in our bodies grows and then is born..), we have a priveledge, that's right, a PRIVELIDGE, (pardon the mispelling), that men will never have. Why should we wish to assume a role that by nature is not appropriate for us anymore than a man wishing to bear a child would be appropriate to him?

Isn't this similar to the homosexuals wanting to be joined in Holy Matrimony when it just isn't nor can be so?.........This isn't meant as an anti-gay comment.

(That last statement comes because I have a very dear friend who is gay that I pray for. Her name is hot stuff and I've given her a Catholic book dealing with this issue.) Please join me in prayer for her return to the Church.

Anyway, do any women visiting this site see my point? While we as men and women are EQUAL in dignity as human beings and worthy of equal respect.........Please understand that latter comment to go along with the first, we are NOT equal in function, and nor do we have to be in order to "justify" our existance!!! "Capische?" - May all be blessed and may understanding and wisdom touch us all in this sensitive topic for today.......and stand firm according to the Bible and Sacred Tradition NOT bowing down to the "custom of the day". - God bless! - Michelle

[Muschi]

Either hyperdulia or knile-kneel/oooooh! I feel like such an idiot!!! my mind just went blank!......kanil?.......ok, you probably know who you are and I ask you now to forgive me. ( You with the pointy ears! ) Neither of your avatars nor anyone else's has shown up thus making it difficult to know who posted what. Whoever posted the words that say "I don't need no one to tell me about heaven..." I know that song and I hate it! I hate it because it implys that one can figure God and all mysteries out by him or herself out without any guidance. Isn't that like Protestantism?........or any other "religion" for that matter?......sorry, that's my narrow-mindedness coming thru!.........this doesn't mean however, that I have a problem with the person quoting these words. I'm only chiming in with my 2 cents whatever that's worth today. ( a heck of a lot less than two cents, eh?) - God bless!..........and thanks for whoever posted the lyrics to that song, for his or her patience in putting up with my comments! - God bless! - Michelle

[Uncle Gus]

The deaconesses were not the female equivalent of a deacon. They were not ordained. Back in the day, people used to baptise naked, with full body immersion. To protect the modesty of the woman being baptised, and for the sake of the priest, there were specially consecrated women (deaconesses) who would assist in the baptism.

[Katholikos]

QUOTE (nikkan_hanil @ Nov 28 2003, 06:00 PM)

Anyone heard of the "Old Catholic Church"? It's a church based on the church, has almost everything that the real Catholic church believes in, but a long time ago, I read an article on this "Old Catholic Church" saying that they were going to ordain their first woman preist.

[Ellenita]

In 1925 the old Catholic communion formally recognised Anglican ordinations, and in 1932 entered into full communion with the Church of England

Then they would be forced to recognise women's ordination since this has been accepted by the Anglican church.

The notion of the 'custom of the day' is a difficult argument to sustain with regard to women's ordination - I accept that it may be an issue that has grown in recent times as a result of the move towards more equality in terms of secular beliefs, but then it was also the 'custom of the day' in OT times for leaders within the Jewish community to be male so it would be natural for the early church to contiune with this custom and practice, as it did with many others.

As a woman, I am relieved that I have never felt the calling to be a priest! I trust and pray that I am in the right job which God wants me to be in and that I will hear His voice if He wants me to change career. I would also imagine that those women who have felt the calling to become ordained have listened to God's voice speaking to them - I not sure I have the right to question that!