Pope approves barring gay seminarians

[crusader1234]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Sep 20 2005, 06:15 PM']What a silly comment to make.
Pointing out that homosexual attraction is a dis-ordered state as stated  by the Church makes us people who are faithful to what the church says, not people with an agenda who usually villify their opponents by calling them homophobes.
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I completely agree with you, I completely agree with the Church. However, I'm unaware that the Church (or you, for that matter) goes around promoting 'beating up pansies'. My comment wasn't intended to contradict anything you've been saying, it was directed at those talking about 'beating up pansies' - I'm sorry if it didn't come across that way.

[avemaria40]

i agree w/u fidei defensor, if someone can overcome that temptation and they feel God's call to be a priest, why should they not be ordained, and then have to live alone or something?

[Pio Nono]

JMJ
9/20 - St. Andrew Kim Taegon

Remembering also that, even if we do not like this pastoral decision of the Holy Father, we must give religious submission to it. He's doing it for the good of the Church. It's not that we "should" give religious submission, we [i]must[/i] for the good of the Church. I'm saying that it's not attacking the root of the problem (I like pspx's point about chanceries and rectors), but then again...


I've been wrong a number of times before.

[avemaria40]

i understand that, and it's only by the grace of God that i have been able to accept the Church's teachings about women ordination and homosexual "marriage". Maybe this is one of those things.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Sep 20 2005, 07:35 PM']Again, a valid arguement. But, reguardless of the kind of temptation, it is just a temptation. Satan cannot make you do anything.  You dont have to participate in it. We must remember that we can draw our strength from Christ.

But, yes, i again see your point.  But, do you think that someone can overcome the temptation, over time with prayer, and be unaffected by it?
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Yes, of course I think someone could overcome their homosexual attraction (by the grace of God), but until such a thing is managed, it would seem as though avoiding situations where one would be exposed to a great amount of temptation would be the more appropriate thing to do in such a case.

It does not seem to me that it would be the case that homosexual attraction is something that could be easily managed and overcome in the seminary--the seminary is for growing in holiness, yes, but extraordinary struggles (ex. homosexuality which stretches beyond concupiscence brought on by the Fall) should be overcome and controlled before moving forward. The seminary is for learning theology and how to be a good priest, not for testing out whether one can or can not handle and control their homosexual temptations.

[son_of_angels]

It is a sad thing to see such attitudes on display.

Many of my friends in the past were openly homosexual. I disagreed with their behaviour, I witnessed the faith to them when I could, but they were still my friends.

These people, even when in the most compromising of situations, still had the reason not to jump at the first male they saw. Homosexuals, even flagrant ones, usually are not sexual beasts that cannot prevent themselves from intercourse.

[quote]but extraordinary struggles (ex. homosexuality which stretches beyond concupiscence brought on by the Fall) should be overcome and controlled before moving forward.[/quote]

I agree, but the attitude many Catholics are taking suggests that homosexuality cannot be overcome, and even those who may have overcome it should be excluded from the priesthood.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

As of now, we have to side with the Holy Father in his pastoral decision for the Church.

The fact is that we do not know much truthfully about homosexuality, only that it is a disorder. All disorders can be overcome through grace. In my opinion, however, I strongly agree with the Holy Father's decision as it would not make sense to me to knowingly admit a man into the seminary before he has overcome such a serious disorder. Sexuality is a HUGE issue in the Church in these times and we need priests who are adaquately able to address that issue with a clear head. The view of the human person is integral to many aspects of the faith, a person who struggles with homosexual attraction has a slightly skewed view of the human person/relationships beyond the concupiscence we inherited through the Fall of Adam. Until it is dealt with properly and completely, avoiding the temptation and that which might contribute to temptation would seem to be the best course of action.

[MC Just]

I cant even believe we are debating about it.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Sep 20 2005, 09:30 PM']I cant even believe we are debating about it.
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On the one hand, neither can I.

But... we debate women's ordination, artificial birth control, etc..... it was only time before we had to tackle the question of homosexuality as well. The world always wants to know "how far can we push the limit?"

[Sojourner]

And, we should remember that we don't know the details of this particular instruction. It could well be that it has information which would affect this discussion that just hasn't yet been released.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Pio Nono' date='Sep 20 2005, 08:43 PM']JMJ
9/20 - St. Andrew Kim Taegon

Remembering also that, even if we do not like this pastoral decision of the Holy Father, we must give religious submission to it.  He's doing it for the good of the Church.  It's not that we "should" give religious submission, we [i]must[/i] for the good of the Church.[right][snapback]731927[/snapback][/right]
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Exactly right.....while the "sexual orientation" of the person doesn't affect whether or not he will be a faithful priest, the Holy Father has made a decision, and we must respect that.

[quote name='Thumper']What is it about that particular disorder that interferes with the vocation to the priesthood?[/quote]

Because the disorder is contrary to the natural law (cf. CCC 2357), it doesn't allow for a healthy growth of sexuality which is necessary for any priest or religious. In order for anyone to be effective in his or her vocation, one should be at peace and in harmony with his own person.

While every sign of unjust discrimination must be avoided, justified discrimination is allowable. (cf. CCC 2358) If the vocation to the priesthood or to religious life puts one in close proximity to that very thing which constitutes a trial, then it seriously puts into jeopardy his or her vocation. They are called to fulfill God's will in their lives. (cf. CCC 2358) At this time, the Holy Father has made the decision that men with homosexual tendencies should not be ordained as Catholic priests.

This should not be viewed any differently than any other person being told that they don't have a vocation to priesthood or religious life for any of the other various reasons out there.

It is not the person who decides the vocation, but rather God. As the Vicar of Christ, the Holy Father has the obligation of interpreting this at certain points. At this time, he has decided that this is the most prudent position to take. It is not infallible, nor is it anything other than disciplinary, but with it being disciplinary, we must be submissive to his judgment in this matter.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Sep 20 2005, 08:30 PM']I cant even believe we are debating about it.
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The only thing I want to be debating about right now is how it is unfair to use a blanket statement of "no gays" and to assume that everyone with SSA is exactly the same, handles temptation the same, etc.. and that every one of them has an agenda, and is an active member of some gay subculture.

With all due respect, some of you are very hateful sounding. There is a line when it comes to speaking the truth. Yes, truth can hurt, but some of the things being said here cross that line, and approach hatefulness.

[son_of_angels]

[quote]And, we should remember that we don't know the details of this particular instruction. It could well be that it has information which would affect this discussion that just hasn't yet been released[/quote]

WISDOM! LET US ATTEND!

Perhaps we should wait to be taught, before we teach. After all, I think rumors of this document will confuse many, but obeying the teachings of the Holy Father will set our hearts at ease.

Edited September 21, 2005 by son_of_angels

[toledo_jesus]

I don't see any need for debate here. Roma locuta est, and all that. Let's get details before we debate what this actually means.

I think it's the right move. Culture is becoming more permissive of overt sexuality in general, and homosexuality in particular.

[philothea]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Sep 20 2005, 06:30 PM']Perhaps, though in addition to valid I would also suggest very serious. Temptation is not something to be taken lightly. And that is my main concern. It does not seem a very intelligent, nor pastoral move to increase the temptation to sin for a man for any reason, however pious his intentions may be.
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I'm not arguing about the supposed ban; I'm not qualified to make a judgement, but I wonder about your focus on temptation.

Like Pio Nono said, a large part of a priest's life is dealing with women (often lots of pretty young women!) How is the one temptation worse than the other?