Pope approves barring gay seminarians

[Old_Joe]

[quote name='argent_paladin' date='Sep 19 2005, 06:05 PM']Unfortunately, psych tests have been used to keep orthodox seminarians out. It is quite easy to do since the vast majority of psychologists think that voluntary celibacy is a symptom of mental illness, that orthodoxy is a sign of rigidity and that obedience is a sign of immaturity. Therefore, liberal seminaries can say that they are screening out the unfit, without saying that they have a bias. Very sad. It is in fact hard to find a solid, faithful psychologist who agrees with the Church on all important matters.
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This is very true. I remember this being cited as one of the cause of the priest scandals.

Try Catholic Social Services.

[Thumper]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Sep 20 2005, 03:04 PM']Its very simple - homosexuality is a dis-ordered inclination and should not be present in a priest.
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With respect, I don't believe you've really presented an argument.

You've made a statement (that homosexuality is a dis-ordered inclination) and gone directly to a conclusion (that dis-ordered inclinations should not be present in a priest). What is it about this particular dis-ordered inclination that precludes the priestly vocation?

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Sep 19 2005, 09:29 PM']They shouldn't rat on them - they should kick their arses!
Some have emphasized the need for "manly recreation" in seminaries - preferrably something where the pansies can get beat to a pulp!
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Unbelievable.

If this was meant as a joke, it was in completely bad taste.

As someone who knows what it is like to have this problem, and as someone who is also searching for his vocation in life, I find some of the things said on this thread very hurtful. Not every man who is gay and would like to be a priest, is a member of the gay subculture, let alone has actually ever acted on his feelings. Yes, its a struggle, but are we quick to forget the miracles that God can work?

I suggest that some of you pray that Christ grants you the grace of charity when talking with others..

[cappie]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Sep 21 2005, 08:27 AM']Unbelievable.

If this was meant as a joke, it was in completely bad taste.

As someone who knows what it is like to have this problem, and as someone who is also searching for his vocation in life, I find some of the things said on this thread very hurtful.  Not every man who is gay and would like to be a priest, is a member of the gay subculture, let alone has actually ever acted on his feelings. Yes, its a struggle, but are we quick to forget the miracles that God can work?

I suggest that some of you pray that Christ grants you the grace of charity when talking with others..
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:applause:

[prose]

Okay, I am a little confused.

I thought being homosexual was not a sin, but practicing was. So if a man felt he had homosexual tendencies, but was willing to live a life of celebacy, why couldn't he become a priest?

[Sojourner]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Sep 20 2005, 05:27 PM']Unbelievable.

If this was meant as a joke, it was in completely bad taste.

As someone who knows what it is like to have this problem, and as someone who is also searching for his vocation in life, I find some of the things said on this thread very hurtful.  Not every man who is gay and would like to be a priest, is a member of the gay subculture, let alone has actually ever acted on his feelings. Yes, its a struggle, but are we quick to forget the miracles that God can work?

I suggest that some of you pray that Christ grants you the grace of charity when talking with others..
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Thank you. And thanks to Cappie and Era Might as well.

I've hesitated in posting my thoughts on this thread, for a number of reasons, but every time I've come back to it, the words of John Paul II to the U.S. cardinals when they gathered at the Vatican in April 2002 ring in my memory:
[quote]... we cannot forget the power of Christian conversion, that radical decision to turn away from sin and back to God, which reaches to the depths of a person's soul and can work extraordinary change.[/quote]

I don't personally struggle with same-sex attraction, but I've got my own special cocktail of disordered passions that have from time to time weighed me down. If God can work change in someone like me, certainly he can work change in anyone.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='Thumper' date='Sep 20 2005, 03:54 PM']With respect, I don't believe you've really presented an argument. 

You've made a statement (that homosexuality is a dis-ordered inclination) and gone directly to a conclusion (that dis-ordered inclinations should not be present in a priest).  What is it about this particular dis-ordered inclination that precludes the priestly vocation?
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The fact that it could very easily cause him to fall into sin... Many diocesan priests live alone, but there are also quite a few who live with just one other priest.... for that matter the very fact that such a priest would be living (diocesan or otherwise) with other men would practically demand such a limitation... This definitely poses a potential problem (and LOTS of temptation). The best thing for a homosexual man is not to throw him into a state of life in which he is surrounded by a bunch of men... that would be counterproductive....

Furthermore, if a priest has disordered sexual inclinations it will be much harder for him to properly address his parishoners in matters pertaining to sexual morality and understanding. If one's own desires are disordered, how are they supposed to help people maintain order in their souls?

[Socrates]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Sep 19 2005, 10:34 PM']Addressing the homosexual sub-culture in Seminaries does not require foaming belligerence.

"Pansies" need to get "beat to the pulp"? This really happens. Homosexual persons are beaten down and murdered. It's nothing to joke about.

The last thing we need as a result of this document is belligerence toward homosexual persons. We must be all the more firm, but compassionate, because it is not going to be understood.

There are enough crazy Christians who hold "fagg**" signs any chance they get. We need to disavow such tactics, and offer a truly Christian response, one which does not compromise the truth, but recognizes that truth without compassion and charity is dead.
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I was in a bit of a rowdy mood when I made my post, which was intended somewhat tongue-in-cheek.
However, it was in reply specifically to a post about homosexual seminarians "hitting on" a "straight" seminarian. This I would consider a kind of act of aggression, and anyone who does this is asking for trouble!
I certainly wouldn't take kindly to some pansy "hitting on" me.

And I am sick to tears of how the more aggressively the homosexuals push their agenda, and the more evil that comes out of it, the more "sensitive" and gentle we are told to be towards them! I am sick of them constanlty pushing the "gay" agenda, while always portraying themselves as innocent victims.

And if any consider my response "un-Christ-like," remember how Our Lord reacted at seeing His Father's House turned into a markeplace. How much more angered He must be at seeing the houses of formation for His priests turned into sodomistic houses of ill repute!

Edited September 20, 2005 by Socrates

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Thumper' date='Sep 20 2005, 03:54 PM']With respect, I don't believe you've really presented an argument. 

You've made a statement (that homosexuality is a dis-ordered inclination) and gone directly to a conclusion (that dis-ordered inclinations should not be present in a priest).  What is it about this particular dis-ordered inclination that precludes the priestly vocation?
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The fact that the affections are dis-ordered, not inclined in the direction of females, but instead to the same sex precludes the priesthood. It is a defect just as an addiction to masturbation would be.
Priests are to be emotionally healthy earthly representations of Jesus Christ, so any major defect precludes holy orders.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Sep 20 2005, 06:54 PM']The fact that the affections are dis-ordered, not inclined in the direction of females, but instead to the same sex precludes the priesthood. It is a defect just as an addiction to masturbation would be.
Priests are to be emotionally healthy earthly representations of Jesus Christ, so any major defect precludes holy orders.
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well said.

[son_of_angels]

Again I would refer us to St. Aelred of Rivaulx, who had flagrant sexual relations with a man while he was in the royal court. Then he became a Cistercian, then a priest, then an abbot, then a saint. While he was a monk, he was so tempted (and he had the original position of novicemaster-dealing with young boys) that he would submerge himself in ice cold water in order to control his passions.

There is nothing about prior homosexual relations or even later inclinations, either in doctrine or tradition, that excludes one from the vocation to the priesthood, and those who experience both are bound to try and change to follow God's call the best they can.

I do not feel, either, that removing "homosexuals," although many defintions of such seem inadequate, will solve pedophilia. Although pedophilia often is from a man to a boy, this does not necessarily point to homosexuality in general. Pedophilia is its own problem.

However, I do think priests and seminarians who knowingly and willingly participate in gay sexual, political, or social activities should be removed, as their presence becomes a scandal to the church.

Edited September 20, 2005 by son_of_angels

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Pio Nono' date='Sep 20 2005, 12:00 AM']JMJ
9/19 - St. Januarius

Kicking homosexuals out is not getting at the root of the problem.  Look at the numbers - pederasty and homosexuality do not go hand in hand.  There's a general principle that we can run by which says that if it's an easy target, it might be the wrong one.  We can nip this in the bud by kicking out the homosexuals, but it's going to have two major effects:

(1) Any homosexual presence in seminaries will not be deleted - it will be pushed underground.  And that's how this whole &^%# thing got started to begin with!

(2) The root of the problem will remain full and alive.  I don't know what that root is, but it does not seem to be homosexuality.  I don't agree with an attitude of "tolerance" when it comes to homosexual men participating in a gay subculture.  But it's a little disconcerting when getting homosexuals out of seminary is seen as merciful, since putting them with all those men can't be good for their psyches.  I'm sorry, but have you been to a youth group meeting ever?  And does ice run through your veins?  The vast majority of people that priests work with are women, so the argument holds no water in my mind.  I am also not convinced by arguments that say "priests marry the Church" - that's a (somewhat modern) Western pietism and not a universal theological belief.

If you're going to kick homosexuals out of the seminary (or at least prevent them from joining), I need to see a good argument to be convinced.  I have yet to see an argument.
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We could just send them to you and you could deal with them. You don't think homosexual priests are the problem? What is, pray tell?

[Fidei Defensor]

One must keep in mind though, the majority of those with SSA who would want to be priests, are striving for holiness as well as all the others. Its not as if they go looking for someone to satisfy their temptation with. Yes, of course there would be temptations, but where would there not be? How exactly are they going to act on their temptation, if all the men there are also striving for holiness, and none of them want to sin? Temptations are normal for EVERYONE, everywhere. To say that just because gay men would have them at seminary, means you should automatically exclude them, is quite unfair to the person. I think there needs to be tighter examination of the person, not their orientation. The problem lies with how the person reacts to things, not whether they have SSA or not.

Also, a majority of men with SSA wanting to become priests also have no "agenda" except to become priests.

[crusader1234]

I fully support the Church in this decision, but like others have pointed out the sentiments expressed by a few of the members here is a little, uh, uncharitable? Maybe even homophobic? And you know what studies say about homophobes.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Sexual temptations are present even for "straight" priests/seminarians, yes. HOWEVER, the main difference is in the occasion to sin. Priests and seminarians do not live with women... they are not around women 24/7. A homosexual priest/seminarian would be surrounded by those he is attracted to practically 24/7... with LOTS of "alone" time.

it is a precautious move by the Church. Better to be safe than sorry... we don't need to make any more headlines in daily blab of what's wrong with the world.