should these woman be declared martyrs?

[Didacus]

Read an article where a woman refused threatment that would save her life but put her undorn child at risk. She said "If my unborn child dies, it would be like killing one of my two other children just so I can live."

Two weeks after her child was born, she died from her disease.

The way I see it, this woman gave her life for love of her child, and from her beliefs. If she is Catholic (don't know, article did not say), then her beliefs where in communion with the church, and she died because she respected her beliefs - because of her faith.

I think there might be a case for martyrdom here.

Any thoughts?
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Especially considering how many mothers-to-be just get an abortion like driving up to the drive through without second, in this day and age, such woman being declared martyrs might just have a positive impact. At the least, it will send a strong powerful message.

[p-hawk]

Some of this falls in the same grey area that Maximillian Kolbe fell into. He died performing an act of heroic virtue, and that virtue stems from his extremely faithful way of life, but he wasn't explicitly killed because he was a Christian.

[melporcristo]

What about Saint Gianna Beretta Molla? She was given the choice to abort her baby because of a tumor in her uterous that would cause her to die but she refused. Saint Gianna died a week after giving birth to her daughter. And now she is a saint.

So to respond to your inquiry, I think this woman should be considered beatified.

Edited September 19, 2005 by melporcristo

[Aloysius]

but she wasn't declared a "martyr" was she? I don't think so.

anyway, whether or not she should be beatified also depends a bit on the rest of her life I'm sure, but this one virtuous act at the end of her life is an indication that she probably had some holiness and virtue and perhaps a popular cause would form around her if she was Catholic.

anyway, I don't think Saint Gianna Beretta Molla was declared a martyr and if she wasn't declared a martyr, then neither should others in such situations. I don't think it qualifies for martyrdom, though it certainly is a quite virtuous act.

[IcePrincessKRS]

Martyr? I don't know. Sainted? Yes.

[Colleen]

None of the choices really fit what I think. I don't think they would be declared martyrs. The word "martyr" just wouldn't fit. To sacrifice your own life for your child's is a great act of love, and certainly such an act could be considered an act of heroic virtue, but I wouldn't call such a person a martyr.

To me, a martyr is someone who dies for refusing to renounce his faith. Both giving your life for your faith and giving your life for your child are heroic acts, but I'm not sure I'd call them them both martyrdom.

[Didacus]

[quote name='Colleen' date='Sep 19 2005, 02:43 PM']None of the choices really fit what I think. I don't think they would be declared martyrs. The word "martyr" just wouldn't fit. To sacrifice your own life for your child's is a great act of love, and certainly such an act could be considered an act of heroic virtue, but I wouldn't call such a person a martyr.

To me, a martyr is someone who dies for refusing to renounce his faith. Both  giving your life for your faith and giving your life for your child are heroic acts, but I'm not sure I'd call them them both martyrdom.
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I see your point Colleen, and I suspect you might be right.

It just infuriorates me how some woman just throw their children away like used tissue while others give their lives for their children.

I think something, some title, some special recongnition should be given to these women to underline the sacredness of their actions and life in general. It would glorify the self-sacrifice of giving birth AND of raising children - both being more important than the continuation of the mother's life (and the father's for that matter). The children of today and of tomorrow should be one of every generation's top priority.

PS: I think your avatar is one of the best I've seen on phatmass.


God bless...

[Colleen]

[quote name='Didacus' date='Sep 19 2005, 02:58 PM']I see your point Colleen, and I suspect you might be right.

It just infuriorates me how some woman just throw their children away like used tissue while others give their lives for their children.

I think something, some title, some special recongnition should be given to these women to underline the sacredness of their actions and life in general.  It would glorify the self-sacrifice of giving birth AND of raising children - both being more important than the continuation of the mother's life (and the father's for that matter).  The children of today and of tomorrow should be one of every generation's top priority.[/quote]
I definitely agree with you. Parents who give their lives for their children, whether it be in childbirth or later in life should be honored for what they have done. Sadly, today children are so often viewed as "accessories" that can be tossed aside if they are undesired. I think that mothers like St. Gianna who gave their lives for their children are to be commended and praised, for their actions were actions of great love.

[quote]PS: I think your avatar is one of the best I've seen on phatmass.
God bless...
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Thank you. I made it myself.

[son_of_angels]

I think, due IMO to the imprudence of many Church officials, we have been recognizing saints at a dizzying pace lately (like for the past 50 years) and we need to slow down a bit.

Perhaps some type of recognition like "Servant of God" or somesuch but not canonization, that course has been to heavily walked on. Instead we need to take a close look at the way we canonize, and make it a more gradual move from diocese to province to legate to Vatican, each time receiving strong scrutiny as to both the heroic virtue and intercessory fame of an individual. These are to be devotional points of our church, they should just arbritarily be raised to the glory of the altars.

The Holy See I think, and it seems Pope Benedict understands this, needs to be a bit more silent and slow-moving on these type of issues IMO.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Sep 19 2005, 04:57 PM']I think, due IMO to the imprudence of many Church officials, we have been recognizing saints at a dizzying pace lately (like for the past 50 years) and we need to slow down a bit.

Perhaps some type of recognition like "Servant of God" or somesuch but not canonization, that course has been to heavily walked on.  Instead we need to take a close look at the way we canonize, and make it a more gradual move from diocese to province to legate to Vatican, each time receiving strong scrutiny as to both the heroic virtue and intercessory fame of an individual.  These are to be devotional points of our church, they should just arbritarily be raised to the glory of the altars.

The Holy See I think, and it seems Pope Benedict understands this, needs to be a bit more silent and slow-moving on these type of issues IMO.
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Considering there are 7 ? billion people on earth we should be declaring MORE Saints if they are out there. Thank God the Church is recognizing more of the citizens of heaven than ever before. We need all the help we can get.
Somehow I don't think there is a dearth of paperwork or any fewer forms today than 100 years Ago.

[Socrates]

Sainthood and martyrdoom are not necessarily synonomous.
(All martyrs are saints, though not all saints are martyrs.) Not anyone who dies doing something virtuous is a martyr. Martyrs must be killed specifically for their faith.
(I think some pro-lifers tend to be too loose with their terms of "martyrdom" wanting anyone who dies because of abortion or the culture of death to be declared a martyr. (Terry Schiavo, aborted babies, etc.))

[cmotherofpirl]

True. Terri is a symbol, not a martyr, and if she is a saint it is only known to God.

[Didacus]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Sep 19 2005, 06:51 PM']Sainthood and martyrdoom are not necessarily synonomous.
(All martyrs are saints, though not all saints are martyrs.)  Not anyone who dies doing something virtuous is a martyr.  Martyrs must be killed specifically for their faith. 
(I think some pro-lifers tend to be too loose with their terms of "martyrdom" wanting anyone who dies because of abortion or the culture of death to be declared a martyr.  (Terry Schiavo, aborted babies, etc.))
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But if the woman in the example was following the logic "It is God's will that my child lives, and in God I have faith and thus I accept to die for my child and will not ahve an abortion."

Wouldn't that be dying for your faith?

[tojo]

I usually think of martrys as people who are murdered because of their faith, so in the situation you described that wouldn't apply. However, such women are certainly virtuous. Whether they deserve sainthood or not, I'm not sure.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Didacus' date='Sep 20 2005, 01:19 PM']But if the woman in the example was following the logic "It is God's will that my child lives, and in God I have faith and thus I accept to die for my child and will not ahve an abortion."

Wouldn't that be dying for your faith?
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Dying doing what is God's will and dying for the Faith are not necessarily identical. (Dying doing what is right or "God's will" is virtuous and heroic, but not all virtuous and heroic acts are martyrdom.)

For instance, if a man died fighting to protect the lives of his children, this would be a heroic act, but he would not be a martyr.

A martyr (in the formal sense) is one who is killed specifically because of his Christian Faith.