Medjugorje

[Dave]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 30 2005, 04:56 PM']Usually when someone looks to corroborate one's opinion, they look for a reputable source.  This isn't one.  [/quote]

But who are you to make that judgment of what's a reputable source? Even a broken clock gives the right time twice in a day. The guy who did this site, btw, has had extensive experience in regard to apparitions. He's seen first-hand the good and bad that can come from apparitions, be they true or false. For example, he's been involved with those who believe in Medjugorje as well as the content of the apparitions themselves. He's done extensive research. Frankly, it seems to me that what you consider a reputable source is any source that happens to agree with you. It doesn't work that way.

[quote]It weakens your argument Dave when you quote from somewhere that even you don't believe.  You used the source as an argument of "how it could be from Satan" and its wrong.  [/quote]

That's bull ... I never said I didn't believe it. What I said was that there's material on the site that I don't fully agree with. However, it has nothing to do with the apparitions material on the site. You're apparently just trying to look for reasons to discount what he says just because you don't want to believe what he says. But also, he was referring to false apparitions in general -- he wasn't talking about any one apparition. And if he's wrong, prove it. And prove that what he says about apparitions and fruits is false, dealing with the specific arguments he makes.

[quote]The web design stuff is really more of me being a smart a** than anything. But there is credence to the idea that if its worth publishing, its worth publishing properly.  I do look at coding for the simple reason that anyone can now publish.  There is so much flotsam on the internet that is promoted as "truth" it is necessary sometimes to distinguish it from truly researched material. 
So yeah, when I see something written in FrontPage, it counts against it.[/quote]

Again, you're just looking for reasons, no matter how silly, not to believe what he wrote.

[quote]No what's dumb is quoting a source without

A. Knowing anything about the source you're quoting
2.  Believing in what the guy says anyway.
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I know plenty about the source I'm quoting. What I quoted had nothing to do with the stuff I didn't know about ... there was so much material on various topics that I couldn't possibly read everything on there. And once again you miss the point -- I'm not so gullible as to believe whatever someone says. I repeat -- the guy was talking about false apparitions in general and how perceived good fruits aren't enough to determine it's truth or falsity. True, I no longer believe Medjugorje is legit, but that's beside the point. My point, which you continue to ignore and which I'm saying for umpteenth time, is that no matter how many conversions occur because of an apparition, it doesn't automatically mean the apparition is true. There are other things that have to be considered as well, for example, the visionary's character, how obedient he/she is to the Church, if the messages they receive are in line with Church teachings, etc.

[Jaime]

Dave

I'm not trying to pick a fight here. If someone who offers no credentials, hands me a manifesto written in crayon about how aliens have taken over the US government, I'm pretty sure that I would dismiss it outright. I think you would as well. I am certainly not going to go out of my way to disprove his "theories".

If someone posts a website (FrontPage being the equivalent to a crayon) without giving any credentials on their background or what they've studied, I'm going to do the same. Its not a silly reason. This guy's site is offering his opinions. That's it and I don't need to disprove his opinion. There are plenty of websites out there that are far more reputable than the one you've listed that emphatically believe what you do. Ask PSPX.

Your post from the site was about how good apparitions could actually be the work of the devil. By posting that, how am I not to infer that you are saying that about Medjugorje? Others are saying its demonic as well. I think that is fear based.

Also I have not ever said that what is happening in Medjugorje is real. I have said that I believe it to be real. That's my opinion. Its based on what I've personally witnessed. It could certainly turn out that I am wrong. It wouldn't be the first time that's ever happened. Others have said that the Church will probably not rule on Medjugorje until the apparitions are over. If at that point, or any time before, the Church tells me that what I believe is wrong, then so be it.

People on this thread asked for first hand experiences. I've offered them.

[popestpiusx]

Refute the arguments and evidence presented in [url="http://www.mdaviesonmedj.com/fulltext.rtf"]this book[/url] and I may believe. Until then there is too much evidence against the legitimacy of these 'apparitions'. Too many scandals. Too much disobedience. Too much manipulation.

Edited October 1, 2005 by popestpiusx

[Catholic Fanatic]

[quote]if...the Church investigated Medjugorje and pronounced it to be non-legit, you'd be bound to accept that under pain of mortal sin. [/quote]

Amen.. tell it brother.

Think about taking a flame and putting it on your arm. Then think about taking that flame and putting it all over your body. Because if you're in mortal sin, you're soul would be bound up and cast into eternal fire..
There there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. You will not be released until you have paid the last penny.

Repent or be damned.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Catholic Fanatic' date='Oct 2 2005, 10:04 AM']Amen.. tell it brother.

Think about taking a flame and putting it on your arm. Then think about taking that flame and putting it all over your body. Because if you're in mortal sin, you're soul would be bound up and cast into eternal fire..
There there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. You will not be released until you have paid the last penny.

Repent or be damned.
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And yet the Church has not proclaimed it to be false yet.


Damnation rhetoric is a bit premature wouldn't you say?

[God Conquers]

I think the situation is much more complicated than what any unobjective source (like that book) could outline.

I've bounced back and forth so many times it's ridiculous.

The book doesn't really strive to see both sides, and doesn't look much deeper than the beginning of the apparitions, when in fact, the tensions between diocesan and franciscan priests in the former Yugoslavia are incredibly deep and go back almost 100 years.

Until the turn of the century, there were no diocesan priests in Herzegovina.

Why? Because the country was ruled by the Ottoman Empire... who wasn't too keen on having Western Bishops in its officially Muslim country.

However, in the 13th century St. Francis made friends with the Supreme Caliph, who allowed Franciscan priests to minister to the people.

So we have 700 years of loyalty to Franciscans by the people, and 100 years of the diocese trying to convince people to come to their parishes (rightly so).

I think we can see that there is more to the situation, especially when one of the main arguments used is "obedience".

[God Conquers]

And what's with the "fire all over your body" stuff? Holy moly, that's a might premature/reactionary don't you think?

I'm also pretty sure we're all familiar with the teachings of the Catholic Faith, so catechesis is not necessary.

Unless of course, you need some on the eternal nature of Hell... which of course you would NEVER be released from.... unlike purgatory where you would be released after you had paid that "last penny".

[dspen2005]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='Oct 1 2005, 12:20 AM']and i agree with your first point, for sure

and, dspen2005...    welcome to the Catholic debate table
what is brought here and the positions stated here do not reflect the offial Phatmass point-of-view necessarily  ...      this is where we place our personal opinions on the table
this is also where we have an opportunity to see other views and maybe tweek our opinion, shift our world-view and grow as Catholic people
sometimes i like to smoke a cigar after Phatmass
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i see your point. i had forgotten, or overlooked, that this was a "debate" table....

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Oct 2 2005, 01:40 PM']I think the situation is much more complicated than what any unobjective source (like that book) could outline.


The book doesn't really strive to see both sides, and doesn't look much deeper than the beginning of the apparitions, when in fact, the tensions between diocesan and franciscan priests in the former Yugoslavia are incredibly deep and go back almost 100 years.


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The book is mostly a collection of documents pertaining to the alleged apparitions. It is quite objective. Objectivity does not demand that one refuse to take a side in a debate.

[quote]
Until the turn of the century, there were no diocesan  priests in Herzegovina.

Why? Because the country was ruled by the Ottoman Empire... who wasn't too keen on having Western Bishops in its officially Muslim country.

However, in the 13th century St. Francis made friends with the Supreme Caliph, who allowed Franciscan priests to minister to the people.

So we have 700 years of loyalty to Franciscans by the people, and 100 years of the diocese trying to convince people to come to their parishes (rightly so).

I think we can see that there is more to the situation, especially when one of the main arguments used is "obedience".[/quote]

What does this have to do with the current discusion? The debate is over the legitimacy of this alleged apparition.

[God Conquers]

Sorry,

I was reading through that online book and it said "I can't think of a reason why almost all diocesan clergy would be against the apparitions."

That's a big one: jealosy.

True or not, it's a reason.

Also, the history of a diocese, especially the relationship between "regular" clergy and religious orders of priests, has a HUGE impact on any claims of disobedience and counter claims of unfair treatment.