Medjugorje

[Jaime]

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' date='Sep 27 2005, 02:33 PM']I hope that it is hot stuff.

I mean no disrespect to you or anyone who has had a spiritual conversion because of mejugorje.  No matter if its real or not, a conversion is a great thing!
[right][snapback]739134[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

No disrespect taken CAF. I think your approach to the whole Medjugorje thing is very appropriate! But there are clearly others, like PSPX that have an axe to grind and in my opinion its unfounded.

There is stuff that is happening there that is fabricated. I have no problems saying that. For example Father Slavko's (a priest that worked closely with the visionaries) grave had a cross mysteriously appear on it. I've seen pictures of the cross on his tombstone. It turned out that a woman in the village was putting it there in hopes to get Fr Slavko canonized.

Also there are tremendous amounts of folks reporting that their rosaries have turned to gold. The reality is that most of them are only silver plated. A week of intensive rosary praying rubs off the plating to show the brass core. I have dozens of rosaries that have done this.

However, I have personally held a pure silver rosary that had indeed turned gold. And to make it even more astonishing, the links attached to the Marian medallion were half silver and half gold. I asked my friend when he noticed it had changed and he said "After I went to confession".


But once one is there, it is very difficult to not feel the sense of peace and companionship that is brought about by thousands of pilgrims praying fervently.

I believe the events in Medjugorje to be true. I've been a witness to the fruits of it. I don't believe its a fabrication for two reasons

If its diabolical, it doesn't make any sense. Why would satan "trick" us into going to mass, praying the rosary and going to confession?

If it is a man made hoax, how do they get the sun to dance? Also I've worked for plenty of Franciscans. And while they're a nice bunch, none of them were bright enough to pull off something even close to this magnitude. Benedictines maybe but NOT the Franciscans!

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Some of the statements from Medjugorje's site still are rather dubious and questionable...

[url="http://www.medjugorje.org/faq"]http://www.medjugorje.org/faq[/url]

[quote]Bishop Ratko worked closely with Bishop Zanic for years, and it was no surprise that he held, and still holds the same negative opinion of Medjugorje. Bishop Ratko is reported to have never investigated Medjugorje, never spoken with or interviewed the visionaries, and visits Medjugorje only rarely for Confirmations and official functions. The important issue here is that Bishop Ratko Peric does not have authority over the final decision on Medjugorje. This responsibility still rests with the commission of Bishops. The local Bishop's negative comments about Medjugorje were addressed directly in 1998 by the Holy See in a letter to his Excellency Mons. Gilbert Aubry, Bishop of Saint-Denis de la Reunion. The letter states that Bishop Peric's position on Medjugorje is his personal opinion, which he is entitled to as local Bishop, but his opinion does not reflect the official position of the Church. [/quote]
This is awfully close to criticizing both Bishops, and it is the Bishop who declares an apparition to be of supernatural origin, the Bishop's "opinion" is not mere opinion, but the stance of the Church since he has been entrusted with that Diocese.

[quote]There was a question asked of Our Lady in October 1981 which was: Are all religions the same? Our Lady answered: "Members of all faiths are equal before God. God rules over each faith just like a sovereign over his kingdom. In the world, all religions are not the same because all people have not complied with the commandments of God. They reject and disparage them."

The difficulty that some Catholics have had with this answer is based on the belief that the only salvation is within the Catholic Church. But the Catholic Church does not believe this. In fact, Vatican II in its Dogmatic Constitution on the Church "Lumen Genitum" says this: "Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God, and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life."

I think that pretty much says it all. Who are we to judge who goes to heaven and who does not? Unfortunately those bent on destroying Medjugorje will use any tactic to accomplish their goal. Those who do not know their faith are many times unknowingly misled by these people.[/quote]
I think this is stressing the Church's teaching. Salvation is through the Catholic Church (as the Body of Christ) in some way, shape, or form. To set all religions on the same grounds on the basis of recogntion of a "god" is a gross error.... OVERALL, I think this aspect of the messages of Medjugorje is too ambiguous.

[quote]Our Lady told the visionaries in the early days that she would like them to become priests and nuns but told them that they had complete free will to choose. Our Lady asked that they strive to be a good example in whatever vocation they chose. Ivanka was the first to decide that her calling was marriage, and asked for Our Lady's blessing. Our Lady gave Ivanka her blessing, and added that she had chosen a harder path for her life than being a nun would have required. I know Marija, Vicka, and Ivan all seriously considered a religious vocation, but after much prayer, discerned that their vocation was the married life. We should not consider the decision to be parents and bring life into the world a less important or holy vocation than a religious vocation.[/quote]
No it is not less holy or important to choose marriage... but the fact that the Blessed Mother supposedly said that she would like them to choose a vocation to the religious life says A LOT. This was my first troubling encounter with Medjugorje. WHY would Mary want something for someone that wasn't truly their vocation? This seems utterly contradictory...


I also have issues with some of the obedience problems that seem to have taken place between the Bishop, the Franciscans there, etc. For some, it has turned into quite the scandalous situation as the messages supposedly somewhat attempt to undermine the religious authority of the instituional church.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

hot stuff that is cool that you got to experience those things. Maybe one day I can make a trip there or someplace like this and enjoy the same things.

I wonder when the apparitions will end and if there are going to be a public miracle like at Fatima..public meaning the visionaries are told WHEN they are going to happen so everyone can gather around and tape it or whatever like they did at Fatima.

Catching it on tape would be awesome.

didnt I see someone old images and tape from Fatima?? Hmm, I'll have to search again for those.


Fides,

from that book I read a few years ago mentioned that one of the women in that group didnt really act like someone who just spoke to Mary. Things she wore and did..just didnt seem right.

I cant remember exactly what the book said but it gave me the impression that she wasnt really converted like what Bernedette(sp?) and those at Fatima were.

If God is calling them to religious, it shouldnt be a choice the Blessed Mother gives them, it should be a strong, strong, suggestion. And according to what you posted above it was more of a choice that didnt matter one way or another.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 27 2005, 03:59 PM'] But there are clearly others, like PSPX that have an axe to grind and in my opinion its unfounded. 
[right][snapback]739157[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
An axe to grind? Why? I have no problem with legitimate apparitions. I believe with all my heart in Lourdes, Fatima, LaSalette, et al. I do have an axe to grind with false apparitions drummed up by dissident franciscans (two of which have impregnated nuns).
Conversions can and do happen all over the place. God can make them happen anywhere, including Medjugorje. They are not proof of supernatural activity.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 27 2005, 03:59 PM']No disrespect taken CAF.  I think your approach to the whole Medjugorje thing is very appropriate!  But there are clearly others, like PSPX that have an axe to grind and in my opinion its unfounded. 
[right][snapback]739157[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

yes, i get the same impression

[Dave]

Ok, here's how people can bear good fruit because of an apparition that happens to be false, courtesy of Rick Salbato and Unity Publishing ( [url="http://www.unitypublishing.com"]http://www.unitypublishing.com[/url] ):

[quote]2. What does Satan gain by making people holier? Don't the fruits of an apparition prove it's from God?

A perpetual argument employed by souls snared by false apparitions, mystics or cults, goes something like, "It cannot be false because of the fruits. People are praying more and sinning less, and even giving up drugs, alcohol and cigarettes. There are many miracles and everything feels so good and holy, what would Satan gain by making people pray more, sin less?"

Christ's words to Marie Julie Jahenny reveal the primary reason for false apparitions, often described as "salt from Heaven" [true] and "sugar from Hell" [false]. Whenever Heaven delivers a true message to the world, e.g. Lourdes, Satan attempts to drown God's salt in the sugar of demonic apparitions. In Lourdes there were over 50 purported apparitions of the Virgin Mary to children other than Saint Bernadette. All of these vistiations proved to be Satanic, though in every case these children actually saw a form they thought to be GOD's Mother. Though demonically inspired their ecstasy was not interrupted when pins were stuck in them, light was passed over their eyes, etc. Had Satan's scheme succeeded, all these apparitions - including Saint Bernadette's - would have been condemned by the Church. Perhaps, we might never have intimately met the "Immaculate Conception". Thank God, the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, did not mix sugar and salt, nor expel the good with the bad.

Without a doubt, every demonic apparition is intrinsically evil and harmful. And yet, while God permits them as tests of discernment, faith and obedience, they may also provide evidence of the invisible world's reality to unbelievers. Their danger emerges when the mystically untrained and undiscerning - most all of mankind - embrace such lies over the Spirit-guided counsel of the Church (1 Timothy 3:15). Often the deceived become stronger in the faith, when they recognize how easily fallen angels can fool men, and learn to follow our Shepherd on earth safely home to the Father. Mysteriously, falling prey to the guiles of a false apparition, many souls have been given the grace of awakening, i.e. realizing that no one can disobey the Church and serve GOD, man lacks the wit to overpower and outsmart Satan's hordes on his own, and no apparition true or false can provide a soul more Grace and Wisdom than the Precious Blood of Christ received in the Most Holy Eucharist. Anchored in Christ's Blood no one will wander into curious realms of deceit. Content with "He Who can neither deceive nor be deceived" we shall truly become one. There is no greater truth than the Blood of Christ. God-loving souls need nothing but GOD.

GOD's revelations strengthen humility, obedience, patience and conformity to His Holy Will. The Devil's revelations beget pride, presumption and disobedience to GOD's Church on earth. A sure sign of a demonically-inspired seer is their seeking self-profit, glory and power over GOD's.

Piety, prayer and good works are not lone criteria for authenticating heavenly revelations. [b]Satan will tolerate good to ultimately sow evil. A sign of true love for GOD is bearing long-lasting fruits and living orthodox, obedient lives respectful to all, especially those in authority.[/b] 
(emphasis mine)

From The Imitation of Christ (Book 3, Pg 160):

"You so easily follow the suggestions of your enemy, the devil, who does not care whether his deceits are true or false..."

Today, when someone announces the Virgin Mary is appearing standing on a rock, many uncautious souls imprudently run to venerate the rock. While their piety, prayer, virtue, etc. may seem to evidence fruits, these - in and of themselves - do not prove the vision of divine origin. In fact, till the Holy Catholic Church proves otherwise, vision-chasers may actually - and more often than not - be bowing down to a demon. What is the effect of unwitting prayers to Satan? Just look at the holocaust that followed the condemned apparitions in Medjugorje. "WAR is a punishment for sin." - Our Lady of Fatima, 1917.

[/quote]

Edited September 28, 2005 by Dave

[Nicole8223]

I totally think Satan can trick people, but my experience has led me to believe that this is not the case in Medugorje.

It's okay for us to disagree on this since the Church has left it up to us for now. If you are skeptical, fine. If you are not, fine! I feel that the messages and experience I have had from Medugorje enrich my life. I will continue to believe, but if others don't...there's nothing I can do.

[Dave]

[quote name='Nicole8223' date='Sep 28 2005, 10:19 AM']I feel that the messages and experience I have had from Medugorje enrich my life.  I will continue to believe, but if others don't...there's nothing I can do.
[right][snapback]739876[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Well, right now it's your prerogative if you choose to believe. However, if, hypothetically speaking, the Church investigated Medjugorje and pronounced it to be non-legit, you'd be bound to accept that under pain of mortal sin.

[Nicole8223]

I know...and I would follow the Church. But we are talking about right now...and I believe it. It is powerful stuff, and I am not wrong for believing in Our lady's messages.

[Jaime]

Dave

First of all, just because its on a website doesn't give it credence. They also claim to have the secret to the End of the World. What exactly are this guys credentials aside from poor web design?

Second of all I don't trust anything published in FrontPage.

If this is satanic, then satan has the ability to manipulate sacred and blessed objects. I've never seen any evidence stating that.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Dave' date='Sep 28 2005, 11:28 AM']Well, right now it's your prerogative if you choose to believe.  However, if, hypothetically speaking, the Church investigated Medjugorje and pronounced it to be non-legit, you'd be bound to accept that under pain of mortal sin.
[right][snapback]739907[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
ya - Dave, and I could say that "hypothetically speaking," the Church investigated Medjugorje and pronounced it to be legit

definitions are fun to play with, aren't they?

[Aloysius]

if the Church were to approve the apparition we would be free to either believe it OR not to believe it. The Church declares some apparitions non-legit. She never declares any apparition LEGIT, simply worthy of belief.

As of yet, the Church has not even said that this is worthy of belief.

Therefore, we should not be promoting public devotions based on these apparitions. We really shouldn't be arguing for their authenticity and spreading public belief. At the very least, priests as official representatives of the Church shouldn't be doing so; but even lay people shouldn't necessarily be doing so.

Not until the Church declares an apparition worthy of belief should we work to spread public belief and devotion to such an apparition. We may personally believe it but we should not argue for it.

That's the way the Church works.

People that say "since the Church hasn't ruled on it we're free to believe it or not" are basically right, but they seem to be attempting to give it a status of approved already by meaning that we are free to publically promote that belief. No, we are not to publically promote that belief: not until the Church declares it [i]worthy of belief[/i].

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Sep 29 2005, 11:59 PM']if the Church were to approve the apparition we would be free to either believe it OR not to believe it.  The Church declares some apparitions non-legit.  She never declares any apparition LEGIT, simply worthy of belief.

As of yet, the Church has not even said that this is worthy of belief.

Therefore, we should not be promoting public devotions based on these apparitions.  We really shouldn't be arguing for their authenticity and spreading public belief.  At the very least, priests as official representatives of the Church shouldn't be doing so; but even lay people shouldn't necessarily be doing so.

Not until the Church declares an apparition worthy of belief should we work to spread public belief and devotion to such an apparition.  We may personally believe it but we should not argue for it.

That's the way the Church works.

People that say "since the Church hasn't ruled on it we're free to believe it or not" are basically right, but they seem to be attempting to give it a status of approved already by meaning that we are free to publically promote that belief.  No, we are not to publically promote that belief: not until the Church declares it [i]worthy of belief[/i].
[right][snapback]741647[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


I pretty much second your opinion

Personally – I really want to speak up when see comment from people who seem to know – [i]before the Church knows[/i] – that these events are a fraud… and I get especially incensed when others take it a step further that [i]this is of the devil [/i]and what-not

[b]Fact: A lot of good and many conversions have come out of Medjugorje
Fact: The Catholic Church's ordained Priests should not sponsor or host pilgrimages at this time[/b]

I agree – we can tone down the endorsements and wait for the official word…, which will take time,… and I will respect the final word of The Church.
I also ask – to be fair, that we tone down the condemnations of Medjugorje, untill the final word of The Church

[CatholicAndFanatical]

I am just curious why its lasted for all these years.

seriously..im just curious. Not thats its my business what God has in mind..but doesnt it make you wonder whats at the end?

Fatima and Lourdes only lasted a short while. But hasnt this been going on for like 20 years?

The last day of Fatima was spectacular with that miracle..wonder what this is going to be like after 20 years.

[Jaime]

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' date='Sep 30 2005, 02:12 PM']I am just curious why its lasted for all these years.

seriously..im just curious. Not thats its my business what God has in mind..but doesnt it make you wonder whats at the end?

Fatima and Lourdes only lasted a short while. But hasnt this been going on for like 20 years?

The last day of Fatima was spectacular with that miracle..wonder what this is going to be like after 20 years.
[right][snapback]742292[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Many of the "Medj heads" truly believe that the reason Mary has been appearing for so long is to instigate as much conversion as possible before the "End Times" . There is a tremendous amount of Catholic "Urban Myth" that circulates around these beliefs. (The story of Pope Leo's ecstasy, etc.) All of which deal with the 10 secrets that the visionaries will eventually reveal. (Once all of them receive the 10 secrets)

I made the off handed joke one time around some die hard medj heads that perhaps the secrets weren't "end of the world" type secrets. What if the Blessed Mother just wanted to offer some things that would be of benefit to us?

Secret # 3 How to get your whites really white!

Secret # 6 Women: How to Finally Understand them!


Talk about not being received well.......