Abortion

[avemaria40]

Hey, i was just curious to see what ppl though about this. I am personally against abortion, as a woman, i find it degrading, as a Catholic, i believe it's wrong, and studying science and the effects of abortion just goes to show that it is gravely against natural law.

[dairygirl4u2c]

I am undecided but do admit to havig tendencies towards combining two and six, which also allows for some the others but. Personally I think it's wrong, but I don't want to impose my morals in the first trimester, or I might say until the heart beats or something.

[Socrates]

The choice, "Wrong, but i don't want to impose my morals and views on others" seems to be nothing more than cowardice. Try applying this to other moral situations (slavery, murder, theft, etc). It's saying basically that you're scared to stand up for what's right because it might upset other people.

[avemaria40]

the heart beats at about 3 weeks into a pregnancy, btw

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]The choice, "Wrong, but i don't want to impose my morals and views on others" seems to be nothing more than cowardice. Try applying this to other moral situations (slavery, murder, theft, etc). It's saying basically that you're scared to stand up for what's right because it might upset other people. [/quote]

Another canned response, but that's okay, this is a complicated issue. Murder of a born person is not allowable to me because the person is obviously a person. It is humility to admit to not knowing the first few weeks if the fetus is truly a human in a way that truly matters. It is otherwise to insist on your view arrogance.

And ultimately I say that if no one can really know, who should decide? society? i don't know why that should be the case, i'd think the woman should have the choice. That to me is what prochoice should mean and why it should be allowed, though I know absolutely no one who espouses this type pro choice view except me. Most prochoicers usually don't say whether or not human and say it's the woman's body privacy etc. This doesn't addess the humanity question of the fetus. Somemight even think that it is bu thnk the woman shoul decide, that makes no sense and your murder argument would actually work here. But anyway, I hope you take time to think about what I am saying here, I hope I made it clear. I don't care if you agree, just so long as I am understood, that's all that matters.

[avemaria40]

a fetus is a human being. at the moment of conception, he/she already has their gender determined, and has a completely different set of DNA than the mother, making it impossible for the child to be merely a part of the mother's body. Also, by 7-8 weeks, everything is developed and he/she even resembles a baby, albeit, a very small one. As for viability, technology is getting so advanced so that babies born earlier and earlier have a greater chance of survival, and by the fact that an unborn child is completely dependent on the mother for survival, some ppl are completely dependent on machines for survival, i.e. a respirator. Bottom line: i don't think any one can make an exception to abortion. Though i would never judge a woman who had one or was going to have one b/c i understand that there are many circumstances for it and that many don't even really want to do this, they just feel it's bad timing. I think organizations like Catholic Charities, Birthright, Rock for life, Feminists for Life, etc. need to be made just as public as Planned Parenthood and maybe we'd see a reduction in abortions.

[Socrates]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Sep 17 2005, 07:26 PM']Another canned response, but that's okay, this is a complicated issue. Murder of a born person is not allowable to me because the person is obviously a person. It is humility to admit to not knowing the first few weeks if the fetus is truly a human in a way that truly matters. It is otherwise to insist on your view arrogance.

And ultimately I say that if no one can really know, who should decide? society? i don't know why that should be the case, i'd think the woman should have the choice. That to me is what prochoice should mean and why it should be allowed, though I know absolutely no one who espouses this type pro choice view except me. Most prochoicers usually don't say whether or not human and say it's the woman's body privacy etc. This doesn't addess the humanity question of the fetus. Somemight even think that it is bu thnk the woman shoul decide, that makes no sense and your murder argument would actually work here. But anyway, I hope you take time to think about what I am saying here, I hope I made it clear. I don't care if you agree, just so long as I am understood, that's all that matters.
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[/quote]

I actually made this post at the same time you did, so it is not a response to your post - so don't take it as being about you personally.

Why is my post a "canned response"? Because it has moral clarity?
You keep inquiring about things, then rejecting as illegitimate anything that gives clear or certain answers. If the only "intelligent" or legitimate response is to be unclear and confused and reach no conclusions at all, there is indeed no point to debate.

Either something is human or not human. What does "a human in a way that truly matters" mean? And if it is up to the individual to decide whether an action is right or wrong, why have any laws to begin with?
What if a woman decides her own newborn infant is not "human in a way that truly matters"? Should she be given the choice to kill it? (Actually, Peter Singer argues this way.)

[BC4Life]

i am completly against abortion, but i do have a quesiton.
since the church teahes that abortion is wrong, are commiting some type of sin if we say abortion is ok?

[Socrates]

[quote name='BC4Life' date='Sep 17 2005, 07:52 PM']i am completly against abortion, but i do have a quesiton.
since the church teahes that abortion is wrong, are commiting some type of sin if we say abortion is ok?
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[/quote]

Yes, it's called lying.
It also goes against our obligations to instruct the ignorant and admonish the sinner.

"Woe to you who call evil good and good evil."

[BC4Life]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Sep 17 2005, 10:00 PM']Yes, it's called lying.
It also goes against our obligations to instruct the ignorant and admonish the sinner.

"Woe to you who call evil good and good evil."
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ahhh ok thank you

[megamattman1]

It'd seem that at the least Soc shouldn't be using his argument on people like dairy.

Edited September 18, 2005 by megamattman1

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]Why is my post a "canned response"? Because it has moral clarity?
You keep inquiring about things, then rejecting as illegitimate anything that gives clear or certain answers. If the only "intelligent" or legitimate response is to be unclear and confused and reach no conclusions at all, there is indeed no point to debate. [/quote]

First I want to say that usually I dissent mostly to people's factual basis of things. Usually that does involve basing morals on somehting shady. Like I think we need to know where ECF writings came from, why, when and why not other places etc. I may need to go to grad school if I really wanna get or even discover a better answer to this thing. And stuff like that.

I don't know when.
I think most of it is humility. We live in an uncertain world. But I do understand your point if you think there is absolutely no difference between a couple weeks and an adult, which you obviously do. It almost seems like you'd have to be able to note a difference and to not be able to is simply to adhere to a belief because you're suppose to. But I guess I can understand if you take the stance scientifically, but I disagree with your belief scientifically. It'd seem that if someone could disagree with you scientifically, that the person who is certain is a little off, but of course, you'd say the person who disagrees is a little off. What are ya gonn do!

You at least understand now like mega said that since you know my position clearer so you shouldn't use your arguement on people with my position? We don't think an adult and a few weeks is the same, so how could you convince us with that? It'd be tlaking past us. Similiar to if someone said that it was a mother's choice without saying if it was a baby or not. They have to decide, yes no or I don't know. Otherwise they're tlaking past you andor not thinking their stance through.

Edited September 18, 2005 by dairygirl4u2c

[zwergel88]

Abortion is awful

It will be illegal someday....

When I am the president I will start legistlation for a constitutional amendment banning abortion, but if they can do it sometime it the next 19 years before I run, more power to them....