Ordaining women

[Katholikos]

We're forbidden to discuss it? I don't doubt you, but where did you get this information?

APOSTOLIC LETTER

ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS

OF JOHN PAUL II

TO THE BISHOPS

OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

ON RESERVING PRIESTLY ORDINATION

TO MEN ALONE

Venerable Brothers in the Episcopate,

1. Priestly ordination, which hands on the office entrusted by Christ to his Apostles of teaching, sanctifying and governing the faithful, has in the Catholic Church from the beginning always been reserved to men alone. This tradition has also been faithfully maintained by the Oriental Churches.

When the question of the ordination of women arose in the Anglican Communion, Pope Paul VI, out of fidelity to his office of safeguarding the Apostolic Tradition, and also with a view to removing a new obstacle placed in the way of Christian unity, reminded Anglicans of the position of the Catholic Church: "She holds that it is not admissible to ordain women to the priesthood, for very fundamental reasons. These reasons include: the example recorded in the Sacred Scriptures of Christ choosing his Apostles only from among men; the constant practice of the Church, which has imitated Christ in choosing only men; and her living teaching authority which has consistently held that the exclusion of women from the priesthood is in accordance with God's plan for his Church."(1)

But since the question had also become the subject of debate among theologians and in certain Catholic circles, Paul VI directed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to set forth and expound the teaching of the Church on this matter. This was done through the Declaration Inter Insigniores, which the Supreme Pontiff approved and ordered to be published.(2)

2. The Declaration recalls and explains the fundamental reasons for this teaching, reasons expounded by Paul VI, and concludes that the Church "does not consider herself authorized to admit women to priestly ordination."(3) To these fundamental reasons the document adds other theological reasons which illustrate the appropriateness of the divine provision, and it also shows clearly that Christ's way of acting did not proceed from sociological or cultural motives peculiar to his time. As Paul VI later explained: "The real reason is that, in giving the Church her fundamental constitution, her theological anthropology-thereafter always followed by the Church's Tradition- Christ established things in this way."(4)

In the Apostolic Letter Mulieris Dignitatem, I myself wrote in this regard: "In calling only men as his Apostles, Christ acted in a completely free and sovereign manner. In doing so, he exercised the same freedom with which, in all his behavior, he emphasized the dignity and the vocation of women, without conforming to the prevailing customs and to the traditions sanctioned by the legislation of the time."(5)

In fact the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles attest that this call was made in accordance with God's eternal plan; Christ chose those whom he willed (cf. Mk 3:13-14; Jn 6:70), and he did so in union with the Father, "through the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:2), after having spent the night in prayer (cf. Lk 6:12). Therefore, in granting admission to the ministerial priesthood,(6) the Church has always acknowledged as a perennial norm her Lord's way of acting in choosing the twelve men whom he made the foundation of his Church (cf. Rv 21:14). These men did not in fact receive only a function which could thereafter be exercised by any member of the Church; rather they were specifically and intimately associated in the mission of the Incarnate Word himself (cf. Mt 10:1, 7-8; 28:16-20; Mk 3:13-16; 16:14-15). The Apostles did the same when they chose fellow workers(7) who would succeed them in their ministry.(8) Also included in this choice were those who, throughout the time of the Church, would carry on the Apostles' mission of representing Christ the Lord and Redeemer.(9)

3. Furthermore, the fact that the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God and Mother of the Church, received neither the mission proper to the Apostles nor the ministerial priesthood clearly shows that the non-admission of women to priestly ordination cannot mean that women are of lesser dignity, nor can it be construed as discrimination against them. Rather, it is to be seen as the faithful observance of a plan to be ascribed to the wisdom of the Lord of the universe.

The presence and the role of women in the life and mission of the Church, although not linked to the ministerial priesthood, remain absolutely necessary and irreplaceable. As the Declaration Inter Insigniores points out, "the Church desires that Christian women should become fully aware of the greatness of their mission: today their role is of capital importance both for the renewal and humanization of society and for the rediscovery by believers of the true face of the Church."(10)

The New Testament and the whole history of the Church give ample evidence of the presence in the Church of women, true disciples, witnesses to Christ in the family and in society, as well as in total consecration to the service of God and of the Gospel. "By defending the dignity of women and their vocation, the Church has shown honor and gratitude for those women who-faithful to the Gospel-have shared in every age in the apostolic mission of the whole People of God. They are the holy martyrs, virgins and mothers of families, who bravely bore witness to their faith and passed on the Church's faith and tradition by bringing up their children in the spirit of the Gospel."(11)

Moreover, it is to the holiness of the faithful that the hierarchical structure of the Church is totally ordered. For this reason, the Declaration Inter Insigniores recalls: "the only better gift, which can and must be desired, is love (cf. 1 Cor 12 and 13). The greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven are not the ministers but the saints."(12)

4. Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the Magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church's judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force.

Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful.

Invoking an abundance of divine assistance upon you, venerable brothers, and upon all the faithful, I impart my apostolic blessing.

From the Vatican, on May 22, the Solemnity of Pentecost, in the year 1994, the sixteenth of my Pontificate.

[nikkan_hanil]

Ahh yes...because the topic is closed and dismissed there is no need for debate. Further debating might cause more trouble. It's like shutting somebody up after the decision is made to ensure that you don't hear any more complaining and questions and stuff.

[Katholikos]

Letter

October 28, 1995

Concerning the CDF Reply

Regarding Ordinatio Sacerdotalis

Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

Prefect, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

The publication of the Reply of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to a dubium regarding the reason for which the teaching contained in the Apostolic Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is to be considered definitive tenenda seems the appropriate moment to offer certain reflections.

The ecclesiological significance of this Apostolic Letter was underscored even by its date of publication, for it was on that day, May 22, 1994, that the Church celebrated the Solemnity of Pentecost. Its importance, however, could be discovered above all in the concluding words of the Letter: "in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful" (n. 4).

The Pope's intervention was necessary not simply to reiterate the validity of a discipline observed in the Church from the beginning, but to confirm a doctrine "preserved by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the Magisterium in its more recent documents," which "pertains to the Church's divine consitution itself" (n. 4). In this way, the Holy Father intended to make clear that the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved solely to men could not be considered "open to debate" and neither could one attribute to the decision of the Church "a merely disciplinary force" (ibid).

The fruits of this Letter have been evident since its publication. Many consciences which in good faith had been disturbed, more by doubt than by uncertainty, found serenity once again thanks to the teaching of the Holy Father. However, some perplexity continued, not only among those who, distant from the Catholic faith, do not accept the existence of a doctrinal authority within the Church -- that is, a Magisterium sacramentally invested with the authority of Christ (cf. Lumen Gentium, 21) -- but also among some of the faithful to whom it continued to seem that the exclusion of women from the priestly ministry represents a form of injustice or discrimination against them. Some objected that it is not evident from Revelation that such an exclusion was the will of Christ for his Church, and others had questions concerning the assent owed to the Letter.

Certainly, the understanding of the reasons for which the Church does not have the power to confer priestly ordination on women can be deepened further. Such reasons, for example, have been set out already in the Declaration Inter Insigniores (October 15, 1976), issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and approved by Pope Paul VI, and in a number of the documents of John Paul II (for example, Christifideles Laici, 51; Mulieris Dignitatem, 26), as well as in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, No. 1577). But in any case it cannot be forgotten that the Church teaches, as an absolutely fundamental truth of Christian anthropology, the equal personal dignity of men and women, and the necessity of overcoming and doing away with "every type of discrimination regarding fundamental rights" (Gaudium et Spes, 29). It is in the light of this truth that one can seek to understand better the teaching that women cannot receive priestly ordination. A correct theology can prescind neither from one nor from the other of these doctrines, but must hold the two together; only thus will it be able to deepen our comprehension of God's plan regarding woman and regarding the priesthood -- and hence, regarding the mission of woman in the Church. If however, perhaps by allowing oneself to be conditioned too much by the ways and spirit of the age, one should assert that a contradiction exists between these two truths, the way of progress in the intelligence of the faith would be lost.

In the Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis the Pope focuses attention on the figu of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, and Mother of the Church. The fact that she "received neither the mission proper to the Apostles nor the ministerial priesthood clearly shows that the non-admission of women to priestly ordination cannot mean that women are of lesser dignity, nor can it be construed as discrimination against them" (n. 3). Diversity of mission in no way compromises equality of personal dignity.

Furthermore, to understand that this teaching implies no injustice or discrimination against women, one has to consider the nature of the ministerial priesthood itself, which is a service and not a position of privilege or human power over others. Whoever, man or woman, conceives of the priesthood in terms of personal affirmation, as a goal or point of departure in a career of human success, is profoundly mistaken, for the true meaning of Christian priesthood, whether it be the common priesthood of the faithful or, in a most special way, the ministerial priesthood, can only be found in the sacrifice of one's own being in union with Christ, in service of the brethren. Priestly ministry constitutes neither the universal ideal nor, even less, the goal of Christian life. In this connection, it is helpful to recall once again that "the only higher gift, which can and must be desired, is charity" (cf. 1 Cor. 12:13; Inter Insigniores).

With respect to its foundation in Sacred Scripture and in Tradition, John Paul II directs his attention to the fact that the Lord Jesus, as is witnessed by the New Testament, called only men, and not women, to the ordained ministry, and that the Apostles "did the same when they chose fellow workers who would succeed them in their ministry" (n. 2; cf. 1 Tim. 3:1ff; 2 Tim. 1:6; Tit. 1:5). There are sound arguments supporting the fact that Christ's way of acting was not determined by cultural motives (cf. n. 2), as there are also sufficient grounds to state that Tradition has interpreted the choice made by the Lord as binding for the Church of all times.

Here, however, we find ourselves before the essential interdependence of Holy Scripture and Tradition, an interdependence which makes of these two forms of the transmission of the Gospel an unbreakable unity with the Magisterium, which is an integral part of Tradition and is entrusted with the authentic interpretation of the Word of God, written and handed down (Dei Verbum, 9 and 10). In the specific case of priestly ordination, the successors of the Apostles have always observed the norm of conferring it only on men, and the Magisterium, assisted by the Holy Spirit, teaches us that this did not occur by chance, habitual repetition, subjection to sociological conditioning, or even less because of some imaginary inferiority of women; but rather because "the Church has always acknowledged as a perennial norm her Lord's way of acting in choosing the twelve men whom he made the foundation of his Church" (n. 2).

As is well known, there are reasons ex convenientia by which theology has sought and seeks to understand the reasonableness of the will of the Lord. Such reasons, expounded for example in the Declaration Inter Insigniores, have their undoubted value, and yet they are not conceived or employed as if they were strictly logical proofs derived from absolute principles. At the same time, it is important to keep in mind, as these reasons help us to comprehend, that the human will of Christ not only is not arbitrary, but that it is intimately united with the divine will of the eternal Son, on which the ontological and anthropological truth of the creation of the two sexes depends.

In response to this precise act of the Magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, explicitly addressed to the entire Catholic Church, all members of the faithful are required to give their assent to the teaching stated therein. To this end, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, with the approval of the Holy Father, has given an official Reply on the nature of this assent; it is a matter of full definitive assent, that is to say, irrevocable, to a doctrine taught infallibly by the Church. In fact, as the Reply explains, the definitive nature of this assent derives from the truth of the doctrine itself, since, founded on the written Word of God, and constantly held and applied in the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary universal Magisterium (cf. Lumen Gentium, 25). Thus, the Reply specifies that this doctrine belongs to the deposit of the faith of the Church. It should be emphasized that the definitive and infallible nature of this teaching of the Church did not arise with the publication of the Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis. In the Letter, as the Reply of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith also explains, the Roman Pontiff, having taken account of present circumstances, has confirmed the same teaching by a formal declaration, giving expression once again to quod semper, quod ubique et quod ab omnibus tenendum est, utpote ad fidei depositum pertinens. In this case, an act of the ordinary Papal Magisterium, in itself not infallible, witnesses to the infallibility of the teaching of a doctrine already possessed by the Church.

Finally, there have been some commentaries on the Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis which have suggested that the document constitutes an additional and inopportune obstacle on the already difficult path of ecumenism. In this regard, it should not be forgotten that according to both the letter and the spirit of the Second Vatican Council (cf. Unitatis Redintegratio, 11), the authentic ecumenical task, to which the Catholic Church is unequivocally and permanently committed, requires complete sincerity and clarity in the presentation of one's own faith. Furthermore, it should be noted that the doctrine reaffirmed by the Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis cannot but further the pursuit of full communion with the Orthodox Churches which, in fidelity to Tradition, have maintained and continue to maintain the same teaching.

The singular originality of the Church and of the priestly ministry within the Church requires a precise clarity of criteria. Concretely, one must never lose sight of the fact that the Church does not find the source of her faith and her constitutive structure in the principles of the social order of any historical period. While attentive to the world in which she lives and for whose salvation she labours, the Church is conscious of being the bearer of a higher fidelity to which she is bound. It is a question of a radical faithfulness to the Word of God which she has received from Christ who established her to last until the end of the ages. This Word of God, in proclaiming the essential value and eternal destiny of every person, reveals the ultimate foundation of the dignity of every human being, of every woman and of every man.

+ Joseph Card. Ratzinger

Prefect

12/7/95

[Paladin D]

I'm against ordaining women to the priesthood.

[Katholikos]

Ahh yes...because the topic is closed and dismissed there is no need for debate. Further debating might cause more trouble. It's like shutting somebody up after the decision is made to ensure that you don't hear any more complaining and questions and stuff.

Infallible doctrines are closed to debate. This is an infallible doctrine. If one is Catholic, one must say with St. Augustine,

Roma locuta est, causa finita est.

Rome has spoken, the case is closed.

I believe everything the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church teaches . . . from the Profession of Faith. A person is free not to believe any Church teaching, of course, in which case they are, by definition, not Catholic. Catholicism is a package deal. All or nothing at all. The Catholic Church speaks for God. We can't pick and choose among doctrines -- "I'll have some of this one but none of that." Either one accepts the authority of the Church or one does not.

This belongs on the Debate Table, don'tchathink?

We've argued this subject many times, and are always glad to argue it again.

JMJ Likos

[Joyful]

For the record... I'm totally against the ordination of women as well I just didn't realize we weren't to engage on a debate about the topic.

Thanks for the clarification!

[BLAZEr]

I think there needs to be some clarification. The Holy Father has not forbidden catholics to speak on this issue. The issue is closed in as much as it is not open to theological speculation as to whether woman can or should be ordained.

It is certainly not forbidden for us to explain why women CANNOT be ordained. Why only men can be priests, and it is ENCOURAGED in Pastores Dabo Vobis for theologians, priests, and the lay faithful to more fully describe the priesthood and the theological underpinnings of its role and purpose. This would, by necessity, include reasons why Priests are men.

Also, the Church encourages us to foster discussion as to the role of women in society and in the Church. However, we are not to do this so as to engage in a polemic as to why women should be ordained priests.

This topic is NOT forbidden, but it is not OPEN to change. We cannot talk about it if we're talking about it AS IF IT WERE AN OPEN QUESTION WITHOUT A DEFINITIVE ANSWER. The Question is Answered, in the negative. Women cannot be priests. Men can be priests.

[Aloysius]

yeah, i know you wanted info FOR and AGAINST, sorry u just got info AGAINST, that's just cause phatmassers don't give info out that leads ppl astray

like St. Augustine Said, like Likos said, Rome has spoken, the case is closed. <Sermon 131:10>

if you go into the reading room, theres a section "debates from the Phorum"

it says that there are new debates coming soon, but it appears to be untrue, as the women's ordination 1 has been the only 1 there FOREVER.

anyway, it's strange. ppl criticize the Church when She claims to have authority to do stuff like teach infallibly. they also cricize her when she claims not to have the authority to ordain women.

could you imagine a woman priest saying mass? they would act in persona Christi? say "This is my body"???!!! I WOULD THROW UP! seriously.

Judeo-Christianity has male priests. FOR SIX THOUSAND YEARS. who the hell would we think we were to go against 6000 years of what GOD has done for His ppl. it's not just that Jesus ordained men, it's that God ordained men, from ancient times. men have always been priests. just like women have always been mothers. there has never been a preistess in 6000 years, God would have one pretty messed up plan to wait until now, well not even now since the current Pope will not allow it <infallibly i might add>, but wait until some time in the future to start doin it. It's much deeper than anything any secular nut out there or any religious person who just doesn't know any better could possilbly realize. it goes back to the creation of man and woman, the way they were created. men lay the seed and women nurture it. men and women are equal just different. the alpha, the omega, the way it has been from the begining and the way it will be till the end. the ministerial and religious priesthood is reserved for the men.

B)

[Aloysius]

i kinda pushed this thread around wit my lil first page filler fiasco.

so,,, um... BUMP!

[Aloysius]

If anyone can find for me the passage pertaining to women deacons in the New Testament please let me know because I lost my spot and cannot find it to no avail.  (not 1 Timothy)

i believe you may be thinking of

Romans 16:1

I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is (also) a minister of the church at Cenchreae,

2

that you may receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the holy ones, and help her in whatever she may need from you, for she has been a benefactor to many and to me as well.

Ministers: the Greek term diakonoi is used frequently in the New Testament to designate "servants," "attendants," or "ministers." Paul refers to himself and to other apostles as "ministers of God" (2 Cor 6:4) or "ministers of Christ" (2 Cor 11:23). In the Pastorals (1 Tim 3:8, 12) the diakonos has become an established official in the local church; hence the term is there translated as deacon.

the footnote is from the USCCB New American Bible, the footnote is for Philipinans 1 as the footnote in romans says

2 [1] Minister: in Greek, diakonos; see the note on Philippians 1:1.

anyway, that kills the argument for new testament deacons. there were women ministers, in the way there are now youth ministers (Andrea... :ph34r: ) and such. they were not deacons, as the office of deacon had not been developed until such time as 1 Timothy.

B)

[SevenSorrows]

Here is my reason (one of them) for no women priests, check it out---

The bible tells us that the Church is the bride of Christ. Priests take Christs place on earth and speak in his place during the eucharist "this is my body". Jesus was a priest. So women cannot be priests because then that would mean that a that a woman (taking the place of christ) would have to be married to the church (the bride of christ) and women can't marry women, so that would make women lesbians with the church and that can't happen.

this might not make sense, but read it a few times...hehehehe

[L5]

I know that a balanced debate has a for and against. Except that the position for women priests usually is not much more than "why not?" The Church then goes on and on and on to explain why not. Not a bad question to ask is "why?"

[Aloysius]

Seven sorrows! you hit the nail on the head. i went through a whole paragraph trying to explain infallibility and JPII's statement and all that, but i completely neglected that very true argument. i've heard it before, but i guess it never really sunk in. now it makes a billion times more sense, i guess i just needed to read it or somethin.

anyway, you mind if i quote you and print that out and show it to my close personal friend, -I---Love? she seems not to be convinced by anything, she just shrugs her shoulders and says i don't buy it, but i still want her to have that lil explanation in her mind also.