Women...

[Aloysius]

[quote name='socalscout' date='Sep 25 2005, 08:44 PM']Does the Church disallow it or condemn it? Are these rogue pastors and Bishops allowing females approach the Altar?

If the Church allows it then yours, as well as the others, is just opinion and when the laity imposes their opinion on others it is  "troublesome at best, dangerous at worst".
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the Church prefers males only at the altar. she prefers first and foremost that stable ministries be used in the service of the altar. she only allows men to be admitted to these stable ministries (acolyte, lector, cantor)

in cases when these stable ministries are not available, she allows an extraordinary use of laypeople with a quasi-ministry (reader, altar server, music director)

she promotes the use of altar boys to serve after the manner of the acolyte. she allows altar servers as well in the case of people with stable ministries not being available. but altar boys may be used even with an acolyte there because that practice is PROMOTED, the other one is grudgingly allowed for cases of necessty.

References:
[url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html"]Redemptionis Sacramentum[/url] # 44, #45, #47

There are other documents to illustrate the point I'm sure, but I don't have time to look for them right now. However, the stable ministries of that altar which are prefered and alone can be used ORDINARILY are reserved to men. It is clear the Church still promotes a gender differentiation between the role of those on the altar being people with priest-potential and the people in the congregation to be laity.

[Oik]

In the Eastern Catholic Church, women are not allowed to serve at the Altar in any way.

There is a distinction here, of course. Why? The East does not insist on having the Ambo/lectern in the Sanctuary (behind the Iconostasis).

IN the Western Church, the Ambo/lectern is fixed in the sanctuary, so readers and lectors must enter the Sanctuary (the Sacred Space) to read.

Actually, there really is no Sanctuary in most western Churches, with the exception that some have steps around the Altar and this is considered the Sanctuary now.




Sarah,
The desire to serve the Church is an admireable desire, I am glad that youwant to help the Church and that you are intersted in your Faith and the life of the Church.

What is the distinction being made here? Is it not really that the Church's approach to mankind is worth illuminating? I would say so, wouldn't you?

[Aloysius]

I don't think the ambo/lectern position has much if anything to do with it... the east doesn't have women readers even without having the lecturn in the sanctuary.

ultimately, the office of "reader" is an unstable ministry not intended to hold up and sustain the church ordinarily. there is to be a more stable ministry of [i]lector[/i], and the Church reserves this role solely for men.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Sarah_JC' date='Sep 26 2005, 08:44 AM']I'm proud to add that doing things in this way, such as in our Lifeteen Mass, we now have more boys than girls coming to mass. Not that girls have stopped going, we just have a HUGE amount of young men coming.
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Are you implying that boys come to mass to see the girls lector??
Maybe if they'd lector while dancing in a string bikini, the male attendance would be even higher!

(Yeah, I know that was totally irreverent, but if using female lectors is significantly affecting the male attendence, we know that something's wrong with this picture!)

Edited September 27, 2005 by Socrates

[photosynthesis]

haha... that would be pretty horrifying...

I am in charge of Mass at my school. We only have 15 or so people attending per week, so it's hard getting people to come up and read. I'd say about 95% of our attendees are women, because the college is 70% women, plus a lot of guys don't think going to Mass is very manly, and that it's a "woman thing." Our priest calls our groups "The Catholic Girls Club" because we have so few men that come every week. So we have female readers but we really don't have much of a choice because a lot of the men who attend don't volunteer to read, even when they are asked.

Statistics have shown that women attend church more regularly than men as well.

I wonder if in the Early Church they required a minyan to have Mass. A Minyan is a required # of men present at a service. In order to have an Orthodox Jewish service, you needed 10 men. In the Conservative/Reform traditions, they require 10 people... but obviously the Catholic Church doesn't follow this anymore...

[avemaria40]

[quote name='Sarah_JC' date='Sep 26 2005, 10:44 AM']Is this an American Catholic thing? I mean, I was on pilgrimage with a Polish priest, and I sang the psalm everyday. Mainly because I'm the only one brave/stupid enough to volunteer for the sake of singing being liturgically better than speaking. But as for men being liturically better than women? Only on phatmass has anyone told me this.

I accept that men, standing in persona Christi must be men...
But the lector isn't standing in persona anything.

I'm proud to add that doing things in this way, such as in our Lifeteen Mass, we now have more boys than girls coming to mass. Not that girls have stopped going, we just have a HUGE amount of young men coming.
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I agree with you. I sing in choir at times (even was the solo singer a couple times) and i also EM every week. I'm a girl. I also have girl friends who lector and their good at it. I think women should be able to offer her gifts for the love of Christ and serve in whatever ministry she feels her talents align with, although i believe ordination should only be for males, as was instituted by Jesus.

[Socrates]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Sep 26 2005, 07:50 PM']haha...  that would be pretty horrifying...

I am in charge of Mass at my school.  We only have 15 or so people attending per week, so it's hard getting people to come up and read.  I'd say about 95% of our attendees are women, because the college is 70% women, plus a lot of guys don't think going to Mass is very manly, and that it's a "woman thing."  Our priest calls our groups "The Catholic Girls Club" because we have so  few men that come every week.  So we have female readers but we really don't have much of a choice because a lot of the men who attend don't volunteer to read, even when they are asked.

Statistics have shown that women attend church more regularly than men as well. 

I wonder if in the Early Church they required a minyan to have Mass.  A Minyan is a required # of men present at a service.  In order to have an Orthodox Jewish service, you needed 10 men.  In the Conservative/Reform traditions, they require 10 people...  but obviously the Catholic Church doesn't follow this anymore...
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This is actually a serious problem in the Catholic Church in most of the Western world. I have touched on the "feminization" of the Catholic Church in a number of other threads on differnet topic. This is related to the topics of gay and effeminate priests, but that particular issue has already been argued to death. I have also argued in other threads with people who insist the Church must do more specifically for women and make the mass more "female-centered," when the fact is that it is the men, not the women, who are not going to mass! (While paradoxically, any move aimed specifically at appealing to males would be denounced as "sexist.")

I do not believe there was a minyan in the Early Church, because in a healthy Church it is not necessary! A truly healthy Catholic community will have a strong masculine presence, as well as a feminine presence.
This is true in my parish, which has strong manly priests, mostly male lectors, altar boys only, and about as many men as women attending mass. Men here do not feel that attending mass is "sissy" or unmanly.
(And apparently, in Eastern Churches, this problem does not exist either.)

Churches should include priests and parish leaders who are good, manly role-models. The emphasis of sermons and spirtiuality should include manly themes such as heroic self-sacrifice the battle against Satan and the role of the Church Militant, and the faith not be watered-down or "softened."

Where there is a strong, vibrant orthodox faith, the Church is not unmanly. A "feminized" Church is both a sign and a cause of a weak and lukewarm "mushy" faith. A "wimpy," "feminized" Church will end up being a haven of only women and effeminate males. A Church made up of only women and effeminate men will in turn lead most men and boys to see the Church as "sissy" or "only for women."

Edited September 27, 2005 by Socrates

[Socrates]

[quote name='avemaria40' date='Sep 26 2005, 08:19 PM']I agree with you.  I sing in choir at times (even was the solo singer a couple times) and i also EM every week.  I'm a girl.  I also have girl friends who lector and their good at it.  I think women should be able to offer her gifts for the love of Christ and serve in whatever ministry she feels her talents align with, although i believe ordination should only be for males, as was instituted by Jesus.
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We should not casually toss out the words of St. Paul and almost 2000 years of Catholic tradition.

I am particularly unhappy with the plethoria of female "Eucharistic ministers" who seem to think that handling the Body and Blood of Christ (something once reserved for the Priest) is their divine birthright.

I have yet to see a compelling reason for women to be lectors, EMs, altar-servers, or any similar roles.

Edited September 27, 2005 by Socrates

[Aloysius]

woman CANNOT be lectors.

extra-ordinary ministers are FORBIDDEN to be used ORDINARILY, i.e. planning to use them every sunday is an abuse that can only be remedied by seeking more acolytes.

altar-boys are the PROMOTED practice by the Vatican, girl-altar-boys are the exception allowed for the sake of pastoral concerns over parishes that were already being arrogantly disobedient over the practice. Rome in NO way approves of this. Mother Theresa was said to have been assured by John Paul II that there would never be girl altar servers. The night before he would release the document allowing it, Mother Theresa had a looong talk with him on the phone. SHE wasn't happy about it.

any lay person of either sex may take upon himself the unstable ministry that is not intended for ordinary use but rather out of extra-ordinary necessity, but this is not promoted and it is not the norm or ordinary practice.

there are absolutely NO female cantors, lectors, eucharistic ministers, or acolytes in the entire Catholic Church.

there are to be allowed in extra-ordinary cases laity of either sex to be singers, readers, extra-ordinary ministers of holy communion, and at the discretion of the bishop for pastoral concerns of dissident churches even altar servers (though this has sadly destroyed the sence of apprenticeship for altar boys)

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Sep 26 2005, 11:40 PM']Churches should include priests and parish leaders who are good, manly role-models.  The emphasis of sermons and spirtiuality should include manly themes such as heroic self-sacrifice the battle against Satan and the role of the Church Militant, and the faith not be watered-down or "softened."

Where there is a strong, vibrant orthodox faith, the Church is not unmanly.  A "feminized" Church is both a sign and a cause of a weak and lukewarm "mushy" faith.  A "wimpy," "feminized" Church will end up being a haven of only women and effeminate males.  A Church made up of only women and effeminate men will in turn lead most men and boys to see the Church as "sissy" or "only for women."
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Catholic spirituality should not favor maleness or femaleness, but uphold the dignity of both men and women, as God created them to be. The ideal homily is one everyone can relate to. I don't think it's right to emphasize things that only certain members of a racial/ethnic group, gender, or age demographic can relate to, and so over-emphasizing male things would be wrong because it would exclude women. I experience this a lot at my grandma's parish, when the priest seems to be preaching homilies that only married people with children can relate to. I'm single, and I feel like I never relate to/understand what he's talking about because I am not married, and don't have kids.

In my mind, feminization is a good thing, effeminization or emasculation is not. I think the main problem is that all too often, parishes and CCD programs present Jesus Christ as a tree-hugging, happy-go-lucky kind of hippie guy. When I was little, going through CCD, Jesus was always pictured to me as this guy who wore these white robes, and only talked about peace and love. His role as Savior and Redeemer was not emphasized, and his sacrificial act of dying on the cross for our sins was barely mentioned, if at all. This sacrificial act of dying for His Bride, the Church, is the most masculine thing a man could ever do, and too many Catholic parishes are de-emphasizing this. I grew up in a parish that refused to have a crucifix in the church because it's too ugly, and sadly, I have seen MANY parishes that don't have crucifixes and instead have pictures of the Risen Christ.

I think when all Catholic Churches start portraying Jesus as a real man, who died for His Bride and defends her from evil, then we'll start seeing more men at church.

[Aloysius]

that still doesn't change the fact that liturgically and symbolically the altar is to be a place represented by the role of the masculine sex, as the roles of the two sexes ought to be different.

[Oik]

This thread has become very troubling to me.

Please do not take this in a curt or incorrect manner, but I think that there are many misconceptions and points of view that lack real substance on the matter.

Please, as Catholics, be educated about your Church and her wonderful traditions, Traditions, and hierarchy. There is a severe lack and it shows in this thread.


I would ask that we not argue here, but that we speak of what the Church teaches.




Things that trouble me in this thread:

-Feminist ideaology
-Improper understanding of traditions
-Incorrect use of cantor, lector, eucharistic minister
-A lack of charity toward the role of women in the church
-An over-emphasis on the role of women in the Church
-improper understanding of the Sacred space, the Sanctuary
-A deficeincy (sp) of undersatnding and knowledge of the Church's view of Tradition and tradition, as well as who the 'Sons of God' are


This is not meant to point to anyone person, but please, be informed
Also, please, let us be Charitible in how we present the Faith to others

Just some thoughts.
May God Bless you all,
Chelsea

[Aloysius]

I haven't seen any lack of understanding on tradition vs. Tradition, no one saying a tradition [i]cannot[/i] be changed but simply that it hasn't been changed and shouldn't be changed. What is the lack of charity towards to role of women in saying that men and women have different roles and this should be reflected in the liturgy. who has defined 'sons of god" in any way other than all baptized faithful of either sex?

the church prefers first and formost the ordained to serve at the altar. secondly she prefers stable ministries which she restricts solely to people who have the potential for holy orders. she grudgingly allows in case of necessity the non-stable ministries to support the Church when there is a lack of stable ministries. it all shows that the Church prefers men to serve the altar.

[msahara]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Sep 25 2005, 05:23 AM']they change the ambiance of the altar, the perception we have of what is going on up there and the nature and distinction of man and woman within the liturgical setting.  it affects many deep rich symbolism in a detrimental way.  the altar boy should be sort of like the priest's apprentice.  the priest represents Christ the groom and other ministers on the altar ought to be like groomsmen, the deacon like a best man.  it ought to project the image of the sex that is proactive in the natural order rather than receptive (as the role of the congregation is more receptive)

there are many deep and rich symbolisms that are gravely distorted when we destroy the age old tradition (which is still held in the eastern churches) of only allowing ordained persons as well as those with the possibility of being ordained (for females there is an absolute impossibility) of being on the altar.

btw, pspx was not necesarily saying he avoids novus ordos where girls are used, he simply goes to the tridentine rite anyway and as such has no experience with this modernist innovation.

anyway, the blurring of the distinction between priest and laity is troublesome at best, dangerous at worst.  we believe how we worship and we worship how we believe, as such the liturgy ought to project a belief in the distinction between the roles of the sexes and a distinction between the roles of the ordained and the laity.
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That is a very good explanation of why women can't be lectors. Thanks for posting!

[Socrates]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Sep 26 2005, 11:59 PM']Catholic spirituality should not favor maleness or femaleness, but uphold the dignity of both men and women, as God created them to be.  The ideal homily is one everyone can relate to.  I don't think it's right to emphasize things that only certain members of a racial/ethnic group, gender, or age demographic can relate to, and so over-emphasizing male things would be wrong because it would exclude women.  I experience this a lot at my grandma's parish, when the priest seems to be preaching homilies that only married people with children can relate to.  I'm single, and I feel like I never relate to/understand what he's talking about because I am not married, and don't have kids.

In my mind, feminization is a good thing, effeminization or emasculation is not.  I think the main problem is that all too often, parishes and CCD programs present Jesus Christ as a tree-hugging, happy-go-lucky kind of hippie guy.  When I was little, going through CCD, Jesus was always pictured to me as this guy who wore these white robes, and only talked about peace and love.  His role as Savior and Redeemer was not emphasized, and his sacrificial act of dying on the cross for our sins was barely mentioned, if at all.  This sacrificial act of dying for His Bride, the Church, is the most masculine thing a man could ever do, and too many Catholic parishes are de-emphasizing this.  I grew up in a parish that refused to have a crucifix in the church because it's too ugly, and sadly, I have seen MANY parishes that don't have crucifixes and instead have pictures of the Risen Christ.

I think when all Catholic Churches start portraying Jesus as a real man, who died for His Bride and defends her from evil, then we'll start seeing more men at church.
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Photo, I basically agree with what you say here.

I'm not saying that there is no place for the feminine in the Church, simply that if the masculine is missing, this indicates a problem.
Thus, I disagree with those who say that things need to be actively changed to make the mass or religious devotion more "woman-centered," and make worship more "feminine," when it is the men, not the women, who aren't going to church!
There is a place for both specifically masculine and feminine devotions in the Church, but if one of these is missing, there's a problem.