Is God cruel?

[Era Might]

I'm gonna pretend you didn't just blaspheme my God like that.

No I'm not.

You need to be banned.

Edited September 15, 2005 by Era Might

[Thy Geekdom Come]

I hope your unavoidable banning helps lead you to the truth.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Sep 15 2005, 04:58 PM']For those who have faith, their santification.

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I think you've gone waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off the deep end there. If I told that to a rape victim I would fully expect to get a good right cross to the ole schnozzola.

My whole thought on this topic is as follows: not all suffering is caused by God. Sometimes it is a direct effect of either ourselves or other people doing something that should not be done. We need to look there first before blaming God, because if everyone in the world listened to God and followed His commandments, a good portion of the suffering in the world would be alleviated.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Norseman82' date='Sep 15 2005, 06:10 PM']I think you've gone waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off the deep end there.  If I told that to a rape victim I would fully expect to get a good right cross to the ole schnozzola.

My whole thought on this topic is as follows:  not all suffering is caused by God.  Sometimes it is a direct effect of either ourselves or other people doing something that should not be done.  We need to look there first before blaming God, because if everyone in the world listened to God and followed His commandments, a good portion of the suffering in the world would be alleviated.
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I did not say all suffering is CAUSED by God.

I said the reason God allows suffering is our sanctification.

Yes, even rape, or murder, or genocide, is allowed for our holiness. If we only knew that every last bit of suffering in our lives has eternal value, we would not hold it so lightly.

The attempted rape of St. Maria Goretti, for example, allowed her to evidence the supreme proof of love: martyrdom.

Edited September 15, 2005 by Era Might

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Sep 15 2005, 06:13 PM']I did not say all suffering is CAUSED by God.

I said the reason God allows suffering is our sanctification.

Yes, even rape, or murder, or genocide, is allowed for our holiness. If we only knew that every last bit of suffering in our lives has eternal value, we would not hold it so lightly.

The attempted rape of St. Maria Goretti, for example, allowed her to evidence the supreme proof of love: martyrdom.
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Yes, I would agree with this.

However, I don't think that it's pastorally wise to bring this up near the beginning of any grief counseling. It should be much closer to the end.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Sep 15 2005, 05:13 PM']I did not say all suffering is CAUSED by God.

I said the reason God allows suffering is our sanctification.

Yes, even rape, or murder, or genocide, is allowed for our holiness. If we only knew that every last bit of suffering in our lives has eternal value, we would not hold it so lightly.

The attempted rape of St. Maria Goretti, for example, allowed her to evidence the supreme proof of love: martyrdom.
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My apologies, I wasn't implting that YOU said that God causes suffering; I was just saying that in general as my general view on the matter.

But you need to be careful. Like Micah said, it is not pastorally wise to start off like that with a rape victim. Ministry is more than just rote repetition of scripture and theology; it is the ability to say it to someone's face.

And we must not let the fact that God can bring good out of every evil be an excuse to turn a blind eye to suffering; the good that comes out of the evil just might be our aid to alleviate the suffering! (I'm not directing this at you personally, but making a general statement for everyone).

[Era Might]

Of course, I agree pastoral situations call for pastoral approaches. I wasn't addressing a rape victim. But, obviously, if I were, I would proceed carefully, much as I would for a grieving family. Even if the person that died was not a good person, I wouldn't launch into a tome about it at the funeral.

[ofpheritup]

OKAY I AM GOING TO "step out" AND LET YOU "Pm family" know some of my business. In an effort to help someone else.

I have been raped. So "I know from whence I speak" In English....I KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT IT.

Okay that was in 1977, today is obviously not 1977.
Time and perspective has me now feeling more sorry for the guy who hurt me than I feel sorry for me. My concern is that he does not know God. I know God so I am "cool" that way. I think I am better off than he is.

Guys, sometimes stuff happens. You have to learn to deal with what you are given or you will go NUTSO.

It has taken me some time to get to where I am today. Letting God in helped. Having the experience I had, it gives me an opportunity to help others who are now in the same situation.

Edited September 16, 2005 by ofpheritup

[White Knight]

God's way of letting humanity suffer is a clue to us as people to let us know that, we soudln't take our sufferings by ourselfs, but rather Suffer for God, and give Glory to him.


I can't remember who said it, but someone once said why evil is premitted in the world to do such terrible things is so that good and bring forth even more and give the Glory to God.


I probally miss quoted, whoever said it, but you get the idea, I hope.

[Don John of Austria]

kay something weird is happening because I yet agian agree completly with era might. Jamie and me agreeing Era Might and I agreeing, it's just getting weird. Anyway While i agree that pastorially I ussually wouldn't suggest bringing this up first, I would suggest bringing it up eventually. That suffering is redemptive is very often left out of pastorial counciling altogether and that is wrong. "Offer it up" was the phrase I was taught asa child, offering up you suffering to God to unify your suffering withthe suffering of Christ is redemptive and healing as well, yet it is very often not mentioned at all.

[ofpheritup]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 16 2005, 07:36 AM']That  suffering is redemptive is very often left out of pastorial counciling altogether and that is wrong.

"Offer it up"

was the phrase I was taught asa child, offering up you suffering to God to unify your suffering withthe suffering of Christ is redemptive and healing as well, yet it is very often not mentioned at all.
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ofpheritup......offer it up. I was raised the same way.

[Norseman82]

Let's just make sure that "offer it up" doesn't become a code word for "leave me alone, I don't want to be bothered by your problems" as I've seen elsewhere.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Norseman82' date='Sep 16 2005, 12:39 PM']Let's just make sure that "offer it up" doesn't become a code word for "leave me alone, I don't want to be bothered by your problems" as I've seen elsewhere.
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*nods* :

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Norseman82' date='Sep 16 2005, 12:39 PM']Let's just make sure that "offer it up" doesn't become a code word for "leave me alone, I don't want to be bothered by your problems" as I've seen elsewhere.
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never had that feeling, certianly that was not how it was presented to me in my childhood. But too few people have any understanding that suffering can be redemptive

[angels111]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Sep 14 2005, 03:54 AM']lol...........this is something that i struggle with. No i dont believe god is cruel. I think the evil things that occur are allowed by god and not at all committed by him. There is only one problem i have with god........when people suffer he continuously allows them to suffer. He doesnt intervene at all. Some say that he does............i dont really know what to think. Most would who are catholic would probably say that god isnt helping you because you havent given into him........but i still dont know what to think personally. Maybe if you did give into god then he might intervene........i just dont know exactly how this is done. Maybe by just trying to do good and cutting back on things that you do that are bad.
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It is not God that is cruel, we have the ability to chose good from evil. We have to live with the choices; remember the adage, "all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good to do nothing". We may not win the fight, but the battle is a diferent story and God is always with us!