Gah!... why?

[Philomena]

This is probably a really dumb question, but what is the charismatic movement? I've heard about it before, but I've never fully understood what it meant.

Edited September 10, 2005 by Philomena

[ofpheritup]

[quote name='zwergel88' date='Sep 10 2005, 10:19 AM']I have to say that the charasmatic stuff really freaks me out.  For some reason I think that people are just getting caught up in emotion or something.  At the very least it is just definately not my style.
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THANK YOU FOR SAYING THAT. I FEEL THAT WAY AND AGAIN I consider myself a " traditional charismatic."

I "feel" the Holy Spirit. He speaks to me, He leads me, He challenges me and guides me. When He tells me to speak to someone I do. AFTER ALOT OF ARGUING, GENERALLY.

What I am uncomfortable with at prayer meetings is what I call the "Simon Says meets Hokey-Pokey" Everyone is expected to stand up and waves their hands around. Why? because the leader said so and "we look holier?"

I stand for a living, I am tired when I get there. I can praise sitting down as well as I can standing up. The Holy Spirit doesn't care which way I do it as long as I do it. WE'VE DISCUSSED THIS.


I don't go to prayer meetings ANYMORE for two reasons. One, I was tired of being told (literally) that I obviously didn't love the Lord enough because I REFUSED to stand up and praise Him. Two, every time I went it was "how are you?"
I told them every week HOW I WAS but throughtout the week were no phone calls asking how they could help.

If I hear one more time I AM PRAYING FOR YOU, I AM GOING TO SCREAM. Listen up, FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.

I am in severe need of mental help, I GUESS. When someone needs help I help them.

So for those of you who are not comfortable being around "charismatics" I don't blame you, neither am I.

Which is sad I just remembered the definition of the word CHARISMATIC.It means "there is something about you that draws people to you" in this case the HOLY SPIRIT.

This is really going to hurt some feelings. But here goes:
If you consider yourself CHARISMATIC and people aren't asking about "what you got" you're not doing it right. Edited September 10, 2005 by ofpheritup

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Sep 10 2005, 12:15 AM']actually, can someone explain to me why this "tongues" business isn't a fake?  I have seen nothing to make me believe it is from the Holy SPirit.  Actually, I've never even seen it.  from the descriptions, I don't know if I want to.
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There are different sorts (from what I gather)

a) some people, during the "instrumental" parts of songs just keep sort of singing or saying their own thing-- lots of "holy, holy, holy"s, and other sorts of "prayers"-- when a lot of people do it, it starts to sound like a bunch of murmuring... kinda freaky, BUT I don't have a problem with this sort of "tongues" (not my thing, but I can't complain too much-- outside of the Liturgy)

or

b) some unintelligible gibberish (this is what most people think of as "tongues")-- I'm inclined to be VERY skeptical of this sort of thing... there was an interpreter in the Bible-- and the gift was for the edification and building up of the Church (which is truly what all gifts are for). This is something I don't see happening in my experience of it, so I'm rather anti-gibberish tongues in this respect. I don't think it's really the gift of tongues at all...

[ofpheritup]

[quote name='stargirl3:16' date='Sep 9 2005, 11:17 PM']I don't know, I haven't seen it either.

All I know is that we should be careful, because they could come from demons.
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I like your answer. I do not understand it all, either. The little of it I do understand is that "it is my spirit and God speaking directly."


I do pray in tongues, in my bedroom with the door shut JUST ME AND GOD. Sometimes when I pray I "run out of English" I am not sure of what I want to say and this is when I start praying in tongues. YEAH IT SOUNDS LIKE GIBBERISH BUT IT MAKES ME HAPPY.

Personally I am encouraged by it. The reason I don't believe it is demonic is because the Apostles did it and "if it was good enough for them it is good enough for me."

And the big reason I do it, is because when I first started Satan tried "to shut me up telling me I sounded stupid." Well, I allready knew that.

But think about it this way, if it was in fact demonic why would he say it sounded stupid? Why say anything at all? I think he doesn't want me doing it because IT WORKS, it is from God. Why else try to 'stop it?"

As far as the STUPID part. I said "I got your STUPID" You sat at the right hand of God in heaven, you saw Him face to face. You were there. It was all touchy feely. AND YOU GOT THROWN OUT.

And you are calling me stupid. YEAH RIGHT !
If praying in tongues is something Satan is trying to stop this tells me it is a "threat" to him. AND I AM ALL FOR IT, plus it annoys him so I am happy.

I hope this helps someone understand.

Edited September 10, 2005 by ofpheritup

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Sep 10 2005, 11:55 AM']Thing is, there was a reporter who did a documentary on snake handlers and was so drawn in that the theological principles did not matter to him. The emotionalism and the sincerity of those who practiced snake handling got him hook line and sinker and he started handling poisonous snakes believing it was a sign from God if he did not get bit. Emotionalism and sincerity does not make one right. If it did, than Fundamentalist Protestants would be right.
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First, I am horribly offended that you just put my judgment up there with a reporter who fell for the emotionality of snake handlers.

Second, there is a lot more to what I said than just the emotionality. these people were good, holy, [i]orthodox[/i], and [i]learned[/i] people. It wasn't just about how I felt or how other people felt. People followed Padre Pio because he was holy. People believed what Mother Teresa said because they saw God in her life. That is what I'm talking about. I have known far too many people whose lived bear out the fruit of holiness and the Holy Spirit. People who are [i]not[/i] manipulated by emotions.

Just as people are convinced of the truth of Christianity by our witness, not just our arguments, I was convinced of the truth of the charismatic gifts by the witness and lives of those associated with the movement, not just the theological and Scriptural arguments.

[Brother Adam]

I never did say that any given person is possessed by demons. In fact, in my opinion such an occorance would be exceptionally rare. In fact I don't even go as far as to say any one person is 'faking it', but I have yet to be shown any type of scriptural, theological, or traditional evidence for the charasmatic speaking in tongues and the charasmatic 'resting in the spirit. I've read the books that people have pointed me to, and yet even these are sorely lacking, going no farther than "this could mean...". And yes, I have good friends too who are very holy and orthodox who believe they can speak in tongues and have rested in the Spirit. None of them are insulted by my lack of belief.

You're convinced because of the sincerity and faithfulness of those who practice such things, that's fine. Our opinions differ on the matter.

[p0lar_bear]

I'm just tired of having my orthodoxy and that of people I deeply respect being questioned because of our association with a movement of which Pope John Paul II and then-Cardinal Ratzinger have voiced approval.

[Brother Adam]

All I can suggest is to offer it up. With any faith practice there will be questions. As you well know with where you work the Catholic faith is questioned and rejected daily. But the faith of the Church always holds up before any questioning. If the CM is valid and holy it too should hold up to the constant questioning it will receive, being that it should be firmly rooted in scripture and tradition.

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Sep 10 2005, 02:46 PM']All I can suggest is to offer it up. With any faith practice there will be questions. As you well know with where you work the Catholic faith is questioned and rejected daily. But the faith of the Church always holds up before any questioning. If the CM is valid and holy it too should hold up to the constant questioning it will receive, being that it should be firmly rooted in scripture and tradition.
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Is that what you tell people from Legionnares of Christ or Regnum Christi people accuse them of being cult-like? Is that what you tell people who prefer the Tridentine Mass when they are accused of being schismatic? Is that your advise to Cam when people attack Opus Dei?



I know it will be questioned. But that doesn't mean I have to be happy when people accuse me of being Protestant or cooperating with demons (not you specifically).

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Did JPII or the then-Cardinal Ratzinger voiced approval of all the "charismatic gifts" (i.e., specifically the "slain in the spirit", "tongues"--and by tongues I mean the "non-English or any other spoken language")?

Do you know where they voice their approval? So many people have told me this, but never knew where-- and NOT that I doubt it, I'd just like to read what they said specifically about the movement, etc.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Sep 10 2005, 01:42 PM']I'm just tired of having my orthodoxy and that of people I deeply respect being questioned because of our association with a movement of which Pope John Paul II and then-Cardinal Ratzinger have voiced approval.
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I'm sorry to hear that you've experienced such attacks.

[Oik]

This subject ALWAYS breeds divisiveness.

The Charismatic movement isn't about that. Why is it that it's always a matter of Catholic versus Catholic whenever it comes to "traditionalists" versus "charismatics"?



There is a major lack of Catechesis involved in the vocabulary of the Charismatic Movement.

First: Is it the Charismatic movement or the Charismatic Renewal? What is being renewed anyway?

Second: To corner the term "charismatic" on the basis that you recieve one or numerous gifts on the list (pick you gift: tounges, prayer, speaking, slaying, interpreting, etc.) seems exclusive and incorrect.

Is the experiwence with the love of Christ and the Holy Spirit that burns in you heart somehow NOT a charismatic gift? What of the faintness of heart you have after receiveing Christ in Communion?

The tem charismatic is fuzzy and unrealiable. What does it mean? Who would know? Why is it only used to denote people and gifts associated with the Charismatic movement?

Third: Yes the Saints were charismatic. No, they didn't go to FOP's and prayer meetings. They were not anr are not the predecessors exclusively of the charismatic movement. They started religious orders and wrote "rules" for thier orders. They used the proscribed prayers of the Church. They used traditional devotions.

Fourth: Praying in tounges is not on par with reading the Bible. The gifts associated with the movement, while they are in certain cases valid, are by and large inferior in form and content to traditional devotions. This of course does not mean that they aren't vaild devotions or expressions of Faith/prayer. So let's all breathe on this one.


I was involved in the Charismatic movement for a while. I helped with Life Teen. I reasted in the spirit, prayed in toungues, heard someone speak in toungue and some one interpret. Heck I've even heard Tom Booth sing in toungues at a "Chasimatic" Mass.

I've been knee deep in it.

Now I spend most of my time in quite contemplative prayer and go to the indult Pian Mass (tridentine) celebrated in Pittsburgh. I go to FUS. I rarely attend Mass on campus (and haven't this semester).

That said, I don't consider myself a "traditionalist." Not because i'm not, but because to people here, that means schismatic, anti-charismatic. Irpniocally, a lot of Catholics that preactice thier Faith are "tradtionalists" in the real snse of the word. They just want to be faithful to the Church and have a Church that teaches orthodoxy and practices orthopraxis. When they go to Mass, they don't want to jump around, listen to koochy-koochy music (Father Benedict Groeshel actually used this term), and be all touchy feely.

If there was a Church whose entirety properly implemented Vatican II while retaining the traditions of the old Mass as much as possible (vestments, using Latin for some prayers, playing GODLY music, using acolytes and deacons, REAL lectors, not readers), I'd be there in a heart-beat. [This last sentence is a side note to the topic]


The charismatic movement by and large is beneficial. It's place is outside of Mass. It's not for MOST people. Futhermore, the Holy Spirit has always been working through the Church and her people. This is nothing new, so what ever claims are made in this regard are false.

There is also a Protestant element to many aspects of its theology and practices. This observation comes from numerous converts to the faith from protestantism. I see it as no coincidence that former protestant converts seem to be so weary of many aspects of the charismatic movement.

With all that said, the Charismatic movement has numerous practices that it should cleanse itself of. Other expressions are beneficial and should be retained. So over all, I have no problems with the movement itself. It is a valid movement and in my opinion, it is a gift.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Oik' date='Sep 10 2005, 04:58 PM']Third: Yes the Saints were charismatic. No, they didn't go to FOP's and prayer meetings. They were not anr are not the predecessors exclusively of the charismatic movement. They started religious orders and wrote "rules" for thier orders. They used the proscribed prayers of the Church. They used traditional devotions.
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I meant to ask if saints were charismatic in the sense of FOPers and such.

[Maria]

The thing about the charismatic movement is that there isn't much you can say about 'the charismatics' because in a very real sense there is no such group. There are charismatic groups who are protestant, charismatic groups who are Catholic, and even within those groups there will be lots of differences. In short, they’ll one cannot issue very many blanket statements about charismatics.
Since the movement did originate with the protestants, it isn’t rare to find a somewhat catholicized version of the Protestant understanding of grace, etc. So it’s not hard to find Catholic charismatics who haven’t fully integrated the ‘charismatic-ness’ with the Catholic teaching on sacraments, etc. And those who do probably would not be regarded as true charismatics by the Pentecostals.
For those who have a fully Catholic ‘charismatic-ness’, I’ve found that it often centers around the idea of surrender to God – not my will but Thine type of thing. Truly Catholic charismatics might argue that the ‘baptism in the Holy Spirit’ shouldn’t be called that, since it is not a baptism, but a surrender to God and an expression of the desire to live the gifts of the Holy Spirit given at Baptism and Confirmation. CS Lewis once wrote that ‘relying on God has to begin all over again every day as if nothing yet had been done’, and this seems to sum up what I’ve seen of the truly Catholic charismatic spirit.
As for the phenomenon of speaking in tongues, I rather doubt that it usually means something, but I think I’ve heard it described more or less as a raising of the heart to God, using sound, but without bothering to think through what you’re saying.
Anyway, charismatic-ism isn’t my style, and it can be over dependant on the emotions to the point of being more a sort of sensationalism, but it’s certainly not all bad, and God does work through it.

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Sep 10 2005, 03:33 PM']Did JPII or the then-Cardinal Ratzinger voiced approval of all the "charismatic gifts" (i.e., specifically the "slain in the spirit", "tongues"--and by tongues I mean the "non-English or any other spoken language")?

Do you know where they voice their approval? So many people have told me this, but never knew where-- and NOT that I doubt it, I'd just like to read what they said specifically about the movement, etc.
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Only a couple of these refer specifically to tongues, but here are the quotes I have used in reference to the charismatic movement in general.

[quote]It is in fact [the Holy Spirit] who raises up prophets in the Church, instructs teachers, [i]guides tongues[/i], works wonders and healings, accomplishes miracles, grants the discernment of spirits, assigns governance, inspires counsels, distributes and harmonizes every other charismatic gift. In this way he completes and perfects the Lord's Church everywhere and in all things" (John Paul II, Veritatis Splendor, no. 108, emphasis added)  [/quote]

[url="http://www.vatican.va/edocs/ENG0222/__P9.HTM"]http://www.vatican.va/edocs/ENG0222/__P9.HTM[/url]

In discussing the "charismatic gifts," the John Paul II affirmed their existence and the need for discernment"

[quote]It should be noted that the charisms require discernment, especially in the case of extraordinary charisms. This discernment is given by the same Holy Spirit, who guides the intellect along the way of truth and wisdom. Since the whole ecclesial community has been placed by Christ under the leadership of the ecclesiastical authority, this latter is responsible for judging the value and authenticity of the charisms. The Council says: "Extraordinary gifts are not to be sought after, nor are the fruits of apostolic labor to be presumptuously expected from their use; but judgment as to their genuinity and proper use belongs to those who are appointed leaders in the Church, to whose special competence it belongs, not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to that which is good (cf. 1 Thess 5:12, 19-21)" (LG 12).

Some generally followed criteria of discernment can be indicated both by the ecclesiastical authority or by spiritual masters and directors:

a) Agreement with the Church's faith in Jesus Christ (cf. 1 Cor 12:3). A gift of the Holy Spirit cannot be contrary to the faith which the same Spirit inspires in the whole Church. "This is how," St. John writes, "you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh belongs to God, and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus does not belong to God" (1 Jn 4:2).

b) The presence of the "fruit of the spirit: love, joy, peace" (Gal 5:22). Every gift of the Spirit fosters growth in love, both in the person himself and in the community, and thus it produces joy and peace.

If a charism causes trouble and confusion, this means either that it is not genuine or that it has not been used in the right way. As St. Paul says: "He is not the God of disorder but of peace" (1 Cor 14:33). Without love, even the most extraordinary charisms are not at all useful (cf. 1 Cor 13:1-3; cf. also Mt 7:22-23).

c) Conformity with the Church's authority and acceptance of its directives. After laying down very strict rules for using charisms in the Church of Corinth, St. Paul says: "If anyone thinks that he is a prophet or a spiritual person, he should recognize that what I am writing to you is a commandment of the Lord" (1 Cor 14:37). The authentic charismatic is recognized by his sincere docility to the pastors of the Church. A charism cannot cause rebellion or a rupture of unity.

d) The use of charisms in the community is subject to a simple rule: "Everything should be done for building up" (1 Cor 14:26). That is, charisms are accepted to the extent that they make a constructive contribution to the life of the community, a life of union with God and of fraternal communion. St. Paul insists firmly on this rule (1 Cor 14:4-5, 12, 18-19, 26-32).
(from his June 24, 1992 General Audience, available at [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_pau...9920624en.html)"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_pau...9920624en.html)[/url]  [/quote]

In a May 30, 1998 audience, the John Paul II said:


[quote]The institutional and charismatic aspects are co-essential as it were to the Church's constitution. They contribute although differently to the life, renewal, and sanctification of God's People. It is from this providential rediscovery of the Church's charismatic dimension that before and after the Council, a remarkable pattern of growth has been established for ecclecial movements and new communities. 
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Today I would like to cry out to all of you gather here in St. Peter's Square and to all Christians: Open yourselves docily to the gifts of the Spirit! Accept gratefully and obediently the charisms which the Spirit never ceases to bestow on us! 
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It is essential...that every movement submit to the discernment fo the competent ecclesiastical authority. For this reason no charism can dispense with reference and submission to the Pastors of the Church. The Council wrote in clear words: 'Those who have charge over the Church should judge the genuiness and proper use of these gifts, through their office not indeed to extinquish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to what is good (cf. 1 Thes 5:12; 19-21) (Lumen Gentium, no. 12). This is the necessary guarantee that you are taking the right road.[/quote]


Cardinal Ratzinger makes a passing reference to it in chapter 2 of The Ratzinger Report in a section subtitled "The hope of the 'movements'":


[quote]What is hopeful at the level of the universal Church--and that is happening right in the heart of the crisis of the Church in the Western world--is the rise of new movements which nobody had planned and which nobody has called into being, but which have sprung spontaneously from the inner vitatlity of the fiath itself. What is manifested in them--albeit subdued--is something like a penicostal season in the Church. I am thinking, say, of the [i]charismatic movment[/i], of the Cursillos, of the movement of the Focolare, of the neo-catechumenal communities, of Communion and Liberation, etc (emphasis added). [/quote]


There is also a reference by Vatican II

[quote]It is not only through the sacraments and the ministries of the Church that the Holy Spirit sanctifies and leads the people of God and enriches it with virtues, but, "allotting his gifts to everyone according as He wills,(114) He distributes special graces among the faithful of every rank. By these gifts He makes them fit and ready to undertake the various tasks and offices which contribute toward the renewal and building up of the Church, according to the words of the Apostle: "The manifestation of the Spirit is given to everyone for profit".(115) These charisms, whether they be the more outstanding or the more simple and widely diffused, are to be received with thanksgiving and consolation for they are perfectly suited to and useful for the needs of the Church. Extraordinary gifts are not to be sought after, nor are the fruits of apostolic labor to be presumptuously expected from their use; but judgment as to their genuinity and proper use belongs to those who are appointed leaders in the Church, to whose special competence it belongs, not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to that which is good.(116) (Lumen Gentium 12) [/quote]

--if you read the dailies, the discussion on this makes it clear that they are refering to the "charismatic" gifts